It's too bad you have not driven either the MK8 GTI or Golf R stick shift because you would realize very quickly that both cars in actual daily driving are extremely similar in performance as evidenced by the stats I provided in my last post and all the reviews that say the new Golf R is a great car until you drive the GTI. I have driven both cars for extended periods in every situation you listed multiple times except a couple hundred mile road trip. The only thing that would tell me is how smooth the ride is and I figured that out in 1 minute of driving on a bumpy road. Both cars drive excellently with their adaptive suspensions to the point that I feel like I need that feature going forward. As far as overall performance and handling, both models are also a huge upgrade over the MK7 as evidenced by their remarkable improvements at Lightning Lap.


I am not sure why this is confusing. I have stated pretty clearly twice that the GTI is a better bargain because it saves me $17k over the Golf R and if I was concerned about irrelevant 0-60 and 1/4 mile times where I have to murder the clutch of both cars to hit those numbers and I will never do in real life, then I would just pay a few hundred dollars to tune the GTI which would demolish a STOCK Golf R in daily driving and still save nearly $17,000. However, I am not concerned about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times since they are in no way relevant to the way I actually drive.

Unfortunately for you, I am not the one cherry picking metrics. I made it very clear that I picked DSG only to limit the variances in clutch use and shifting and picked the same magazine to try to obtain the most accurate numbers. I also described the differences in tires. It appears the other reason I had to do that is Car & Driver never tested a GTI 6spd. with summer tires and adaptive suspension. The numbers you quoted above for the six speed are from their long term GTI S on SMALLER ALL-SEASON TIRES WITHOUT ADAPTIVE SUSPENSION. So yes, a GTI on smaller all-season tires without adaptive suspensionis significantly slower and will perform worse overall than a Golf R on dedicated summer tires. Car & Driver even made note of it in the article saying that the all season tires on their GTI were .05g worse on the skidpad and 19 ft. and 38 ft. longer in braking tests compared to the GTI they drove with summer tires. These gaps are far wider than the GTI and Golf R I provided when they were both on summer tires. Tires make a huge difference.

Wait you really think there are 5 other people? Wow, I thought it was just you, me, and Rochester on this entire forum.

 

Meh. It's just you guys being you. As long as it doesn't get mean, I don't care what you do here.

Also, you'd be surprised how many people read these conversations but don't participate.

 

Hey Lego, you heard the guy- you still have all that **** you were planning to drop on this forum?

And now for something completely different: Did you guys see the drop of the new Hyundai Ioniq 5 N at the Goodwood Festival of Speed? I wasn't sure about the synthetic sound and simulated DCT shifting, but it actually sounds pretty cool in this video:



Also, 641 hp does fix a lot of complaints. With the N version being longer and wider with larger wheels and enormous brakes it actually looks like a hot hatch. However the dimensions are such that it looks and feels big compared to an actual hot hatch. The amount of engineering that went into making this thing track capable is amazing. No msrp listed, but I bet it is in the mid-upper $60k range.

 

I still reminisce of the days when members engaged in heated discussions about RWD sport sedans.

 

So genuinely curious, you flog dealership cars like that? Or do you go to an intro/launch and get to rip on the cars?


Agree, the GTI is a fantastic bargain.


And a stage 1 R would demolish a stage 1 GTI. Got it. We're on the same page.

You really think you're going to put 400 lb-ft through 235 width tires????


Agree to disagree, you simply tried to justify why you were not looking at the 6MT when we're talking manual cars since the performance gap is bigger. So, because C&D didn't test the GTI with summer tires, lets look at the DSG versions, and then, only 5-60 and top gear runs, which aren't really top gear runs because the DSGs automatically downshift. Let's completely ignore the DSG R doing 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and 12.5 seconds in the 1/4 when claiming the GTI is basically just as fast under the guise of that is how you drive, and maybe it is, but if that's the case, why even bother?

But if that IS how you drive, and you're not going to dump the clutch, why not look at the same metrics for the 6MT version? Because they don't make your point? The R is 0.3 quicker with an extra shift in 5-60 with no launch variable. And 30-50 and 50-70 are 2.6 seconds faster. No clutch variable or shifting involved.

I don't think the DSG performance is as correlated to the manuals versions as you do. Sadly, the all season tire 6MT GTI is going to perform closer to the summer tire 6MT than the DSG car with summer tires.

Totally agree, tires make a huge difference, which is why I wasn't focusing on braking/skidpad, and also because you said you wouldn't be tracking the car, so in that case, for a street driven car, there you're not going to notice a handling or braking difference. In fact, at speed, tires being equal, the GTI will probably turn in better because it's a little lighter.

 

LOL

Tech changes. People change. But I hear you... kind of melancholy about it too..

I drove my car today, and that felt like an event. (Sigh)

 

let me get the link to my only fans account, brb

 

Sorry man. I do still keep the Lexus IS 500 F Sport Performance fondly in the back of my mind and loved driving that car recently, but aside from the engine and gauges, it just doesn't have much going for it. I'm just trying to keep the engagement of the stick shift alive as long as I can.

I don't flog dealership cars unless I sell them and the owner asks me for driving tips and my driving style *ahem* "requires" it. I sold our first Golf R to an old friend of mine who encouraged me to drive it hard and I think I was teaching him how to heel and toe downshift. One of the GTI's I sold the guy was asking me for track day pointers so I was teaching him about trail braking with FWD, clipping the apex, when the car takes a set, unwinding the steering as you accelerate out of the corner etc, etc. I also drove 2 or 3 other Golf R's much less aggressively as well as probably 4 or 5 GTIs.

No, 400lb/ft. would obviously require better tires or very gentle throttle tip in.

Please get out of your head this infatuation with me picking certain cars to change results. The ONLY important fact to me is how the car drives in the real world where I drive. Again, I wish you drove both cars back to back so you could see just how similar the performance is on the street. Until you do that, we really don't have much to talk about with performance stats. I picked DSG cars because I was simply trying to eliminate performance variables because unless each car is driven the same day at the same time by the same driver there are too many variables. The DSG is far more reliable in shifting so the numbers are more accurate. However, you do bring up a good point I overlooked- the DSG downshifts in top gear at full throttle. Still irrelevant because if the power in the Golf R does make it faster like you say, then the Golf R should much faster in top gear pulls than the GTI with the same DSG transmission. Unfortunately, this entire conversation is completely pointless as I am never going to drive the cars back to back that hard with as specific testing equipment as Car & Driver.

Hard pass. I don't want to see videos of you.

 

My infatuation with your cherry picking results is the yin to your saying I need to drive both cars yang.

I've driven multiple MK7.5 GTIs and I obviously own a R, all manuals. The MK8 is an incremental mechanical improvement of the same MQB platform that underpins the MK7. You can't seem to grasp that it isn't some revolutionary change mixed with voodoo that render my issues with the platform moot, or my opinion invalid.

We clearly drive differently. Ironically, the very conditions you are trying to normalize is what makes the R shine in the daily driving you are prioriting. Not every day is 65* and sunny with ideal track conditions and no variables. The way I DRIVE my car, traction matters. I want to go full throttle left, straight, right, in the wet, in the dry, whatever the conditions are, with confidence, and with a tune and not have to worry about traction. I clearly place a higher emphasis on traction than do you. I don't have to drop the clutch, or do anything that would get me impounded to enjoy it. Good luck trying to put down 400tq through the front wheels with ANY tire. You want to try and modulate the throttle on a knife edge, I want to slam the throttle to the floor.

Second, the gearing sucks. The gears are too long. For a daily drive, the shorter gears of the R are far more FUN for ME. The GTI has more RPM and gearing than does the turbo have breath. I'm sure the new continental turbo and updated tuning helps, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the GTI gives up the last 1500rpm for the first 1500rpm. The shorter gearing and redline charge are simply more fun for ME. Sucks to have a car run out of breath short of redline.



Neither car is bad, and it sounds like you are getting a KILLER deal on the GTI, so you can drive it for a year and probably break even. But, we clearly have different priorities when it comes to how we define daily performance, and the conditions under which we want to exercise those capabilities.

My wife says the same thing. How am I going to afford a Integra Type S??

 

Road & Track had a similar article a while back that got me interested in the Lexus IS 500 F since I honestly didn't even know it existed. Not sure why that car is not on this list, but this should help get us back on track.

Here are the best 4 door sports cars according to Road & Track: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/g4...r-sports-cars/

There are so few good RWD sedans left and most are A/T now. I think my favorite on this list is still the CT4-V Blackwing. I did get a chance to drive the A/T version when the car was released, but I still have yet to get behind the wheel of a stick shift. It does feel a bit big to me, but shrinks once you drive at the limit because the response & feel are very good. The interior is decent, but a bit spartan for this price point. I know the car is uber rare, but it still blows my mind that the car came out about 2 years ago, my dealer group has 5 Cadillac dealerships, and I still have yet to drive a 6 spd. I had a chance to autocross the car at Road America during a promo event, but I passed to catch one of the races thinking I would get to drive it at one of our many Cadillac stores. DOH!




And here are 3 more that I would strongly consider. I have yet to drive the Alfa, but I bet it is spectacular. I still wish they would have sent us one with a manual like they have in Europe. I was convinced this was going to be my next car after the G37 when it debuted until I heard it was not getting the manual and all kinds of reliability issues surfaced.




I did get to drive the last gen RS3 and it was stupid fast right out of the box and the perfect small, tossable size for me. It sounded good and the DSG shifted extremely fast. Unfortunately, the entire engine hangs out in front of the front wheels so understeer was quite prevalent at the limit and of course no manual option. I have yet to drive or even see the new RS3 in person, but apparently they did a good job using a torque vectoring rear differential to try to curb understeer and even used some super sticky track Pirellis at Lightning Lap this year that they claimed reduced their laps times by something crazy like 10 seconds just with the tires!?!




I have not driven this car yet, but I have driven the Type S a few times and it is truly a very special car. This seems like the better bargain at $7k less if the seat side bolsters don't make it a pain to get in and out daily and the ride is not too bad. I just got some interesting news yesterday- I am now #1 in line to get my Honda store's next Type R that they should get next year. I also learned yesterday that our local go cart track finally started hosting lapping days again after a few years of only doing autocross and drifting events. This might just be the perfect car for that very technical track. Coincidence that I learned both of these things yesterday? Hmmm....

 

I feel that comment in my gut. Haven't driven mine in two weeks now - keep telling myself I'll drive it to court to show it off, but the company car is also nicely bland and therefore invisible. Sometimes folks don't like me after court

 

As the seasons slip on by me one after another, without any plans for the car except to keep it nice, I'm really feeling kind of detached more often than otherwise. Sometimes I think the only thing holding me back from passing it on to someone else is the hassle of selling it, and having no plan for "next car" anymore. Wouldn't it be nice if someone made a sporty EV Coupe, something I could plan for in 2 to 3 years?

 

Nothing really anything wrong with keeping it nice, and it's also a pretty low cost endeavor. This is probably the first time I've never had a "next car" that I've aspired to. Next month is 5 with the VW, and at the rate I'm accumulating mileage, I won't even hit 50K in 10 years. I think I'm now just content to not have a car payment.

 

Nooooooooo



yeeeeeees

 

I can't really bear the thought of passing the G on to someone else. That's one of the main reasons I'm unable to put it up for sale to pursue an E90 M3. It's just so difficult to sell a rare specced 6MT sedan like ours, especially going into the next 5-10 years when they will become less common and ICE cars in general will start being phased out.

I'm really starting to feel like the G is a long-term keeper. In the future, if our finances allow, I may be able to convince my wife to let me get that M3. In my mind, I picture myself wanting to become a "car collector" as I continue to age. It would be really cool to have a garage stocked with a few of my favorite cars I've worked hard to acquire over the years. Kind of like an homage to some of the old days when cars were much more visceral and engaging. A man can dream, right?

@TheDevilsG I totally agree with you on the rear end pics. I'm not as much of a fan of that hatchback style as I am with a more defined trunk. They just look too much like a bubble or something. ESPECIALLY since I've seen people compare the Integra to an updated Honda Crosstour. The similarities are real!