Grounding wire sellers... Here is a way to prove yourself.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
From: Riverside, CA
Now this is what I like to see. We have established that a product exists and some question to the claims of performance improvment are on both sides of the fence. We agree that we have no proof? So as stated before, a test as the one I mentioned or some other test could be done I'm sure in a short time frame and put some end to this ongoing debate.
So again, do we have any takers?
I find it very funny that people question customers wanting a manufacture to have proof of a products ability to improve.
So again, do we have any takers?
I find it very funny that people question customers wanting a manufacture to have proof of a products ability to improve.
As a former owner of them...I couldn't tell a difference. I bet if I did a test with people who "can feel it" they wouldn't know when they were hooked up or not.
I did notice a difference when I went to twin turbo.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
From: Riverside, CA
I agree with you on many of your points Beer Mag. I don't believe that it will get you any more HP and I can't say anything as to the smoothness of any other operating systems. I didn't notice any difference. And as for using one type of wire over another I also agree with you. It doesn't really matter. But the honest fact is that the car now shifts a lot firmer with the grounding kit. As far as anything else performance wise, I couldn't tell. I don't endorse any Kit over another, in fact, I made my own because I am cheap and like to do it myself.
I am well aware of the placebo affect. I have done a few mods to my car with little to no noticeable affect. Small HP power is hard to feel with a butt dyno. But shifting firmness... hard to negate.
If we both can agree, the engine and tranny is made of aluminum and the engine and tranny are mounted to the frame with rubber mounts, for vibration reasons. So the only contact to ground this the small 12-gauge wire or wires that is connected to the front of the engine. Now check out this page on metal conductivity. As we see Alum has almost half the conductivity and almost double the resistance of copper and is not nearly as dense. Meaning the electrical impulse can travel much faster along copper wire than through Alum. And that is what we are talking about is the electrical impulse. Don't forget the whole engine (spark plugs, throttle bodies, VVEL system, Transmission and other stuff) is run off those one or two 12-gauge stock wires. Is the engine/car grounded... yes. Could it be better grounded... yes.
We both have no idea of each other. You might have thought it was going to snap your head back when it shifts... and it didn't, it only had a slight change. So this is the biggest waste of time in your mind. I don't know. You also don't know me and I could have thought vise-versa. To be honest I just like the intelligent exchange of ideas.
I am well aware of the placebo affect. I have done a few mods to my car with little to no noticeable affect. Small HP power is hard to feel with a butt dyno. But shifting firmness... hard to negate.
If we both can agree, the engine and tranny is made of aluminum and the engine and tranny are mounted to the frame with rubber mounts, for vibration reasons. So the only contact to ground this the small 12-gauge wire or wires that is connected to the front of the engine. Now check out this page on metal conductivity. As we see Alum has almost half the conductivity and almost double the resistance of copper and is not nearly as dense. Meaning the electrical impulse can travel much faster along copper wire than through Alum. And that is what we are talking about is the electrical impulse. Don't forget the whole engine (spark plugs, throttle bodies, VVEL system, Transmission and other stuff) is run off those one or two 12-gauge stock wires. Is the engine/car grounded... yes. Could it be better grounded... yes.
We both have no idea of each other. You might have thought it was going to snap your head back when it shifts... and it didn't, it only had a slight change. So this is the biggest waste of time in your mind. I don't know. You also don't know me and I could have thought vise-versa. To be honest I just like the intelligent exchange of ideas.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 273
Likes: 2
From: Council Bluffs Iowa
It's simple logic and critical reasoning.
The transmission is made of conductive metal....you can argue all day
about how conductive it is, but the facts are it's conductive. The
transmission is fastened to the engine and frame at multiple points
with conductive fasteners. The engine and frame are also made
of conductive materials. In addition to the multiple fastener
points that are all conductive, there are many square inches
of part-to-part contact area between the engine, transmission
and frame that allow for free flow of stray electrons from part
to part.
Now here's what is funniest to me....electricty will take
the path of least resistance. If there is a stray electron
at a given point on the transmission and it's close
to a frame or engine fastener, it's not going to flow all the way
to a grounding wire just because it's a "grounding wire"
Who here can prove that electrons are flowing away
from the transmission with grounding wires
instead of to the transmission from other parts depending
on static conditions, speeds, alternator being on/off, engine
rpms, etc, etc, etc? No one can.
If you like the way they look get 'em.
The transmission is made of conductive metal....you can argue all day
about how conductive it is, but the facts are it's conductive. The
transmission is fastened to the engine and frame at multiple points
with conductive fasteners. The engine and frame are also made
of conductive materials. In addition to the multiple fastener
points that are all conductive, there are many square inches
of part-to-part contact area between the engine, transmission
and frame that allow for free flow of stray electrons from part
to part.
Now here's what is funniest to me....electricty will take
the path of least resistance. If there is a stray electron
at a given point on the transmission and it's close
to a frame or engine fastener, it's not going to flow all the way
to a grounding wire just because it's a "grounding wire"
Who here can prove that electrons are flowing away
from the transmission with grounding wires
instead of to the transmission from other parts depending
on static conditions, speeds, alternator being on/off, engine
rpms, etc, etc, etc? No one can.
If you like the way they look get 'em.
Last edited by JonfromCB; Feb 4, 2010 at 11:59 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
From: FL
Now: electromagnetic wave will still propagate at about half the speed of light. And I'm pretty sure the AT uses CAN bus to send the message to shift gears which is running at a very small fraction of the propagation speed (MHz), but much faster than you can sense, unless you're more jittery than a squirrel on crack! Also, CAN is digital, so it either works or it doesn't but the signal level won't have an impact on weather it works or not, provided that there is enough margin to ensure a low bit error rate...
On a 70's era muscle car with analog control yes, maybe they can make a difference, on a modern car, i don't know, but if they do, it's not because of how fast electromagnetic wave (signal) travels down a wire.
yeah... I know.. Stop the geek talk and go buy some f'n wires...
So what do manufactures of the kits have to say? This is a basic test that would show some type of varience for at least shifting.
I know this is beating a dead horse here so if you want to comment feel free but I just want to know who is willing to take a step out and try and prove that a result is possible.
Not trying to bash anyone for saying it works or doesn't. Just trying to get a test done by those who sell the product. If you bought one, feel free yourself to give it a try.
I know this is beating a dead horse here so if you want to comment feel free but I just want to know who is willing to take a step out and try and prove that a result is possible.
Not trying to bash anyone for saying it works or doesn't. Just trying to get a test done by those who sell the product. If you bought one, feel free yourself to give it a try.
There is a problem with your "challenge" to manufacturers. When a manufacturer produces something to "prove" a benefit, everyone scrutinizes it and people who want to find fault in their analysis, will.
People do it all the time when someone produces a dyno, especially when very small gains are shown.
There are people who shell out 20 bucks a pop for UOA's which benefit the community. And then there are people who shell out 100s for dyno time and do before and after dyno's on when they put on an aftermarket product.
If you want certain controls and measurements to be made, your best bet might be to do it yourself.
Manufacturers cant do testing everytime someone wants them to run a test with a different configuration or conditions.
Also, ever car will see a different result. You are going to get differences from the 5at, 7at and mt transmissions. You might see a benefit with the 5at, but not much from the 7at.
Last edited by philter25; Feb 4, 2010 at 01:25 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 273
Likes: 2
From: Council Bluffs Iowa
Just a thought...... why dont you give it a try?
There is a problem with your "challenge" to manufacturers. When a manufacturer produces something to "prove" a benefit, everyone scrutinizes it and people who want to find fault in their analysis, will.
People do it all the time when someone produces a dyno, especially when very small gains are shown.
There are people who shell out 20 bucks a pop for UOA's which benefit the community. And then there are people who shell out 100s for dyno time and do before and after dyno's on when they put on an aftermarket product.
If you want certain controls and measurements to be made, your best bet might be to do it yourself.
Manufacturers cant do testing everytime someone wants them to run a test with a different configuration or conditions.
There is a problem with your "challenge" to manufacturers. When a manufacturer produces something to "prove" a benefit, everyone scrutinizes it and people who want to find fault in their analysis, will.
People do it all the time when someone produces a dyno, especially when very small gains are shown.
There are people who shell out 20 bucks a pop for UOA's which benefit the community. And then there are people who shell out 100s for dyno time and do before and after dyno's on when they put on an aftermarket product.
If you want certain controls and measurements to be made, your best bet might be to do it yourself.
Manufacturers cant do testing everytime someone wants them to run a test with a different configuration or conditions.
I can't answer for Kingstong37, but I can tell you why I won't give
grounding wires a try....Because there is no emprical data that grounding
wires do anthing, other than make your wallet lighter and add
unnecessary weight to a car.
I'd challenge anyone here to spend less than the cost of grounding
wires on a transmission fluid change with top-of-the-line fluid.
(Redline, or B&M perhaps) and then tell us all if you notice any performance
change.
There is plenty of evidence of actual performance improvements...
It's one of the very first modifications every race team makes because
it gets them real and measurable results....less wear, cooler internal
temperatures, less slippage and quicker shifts. It sure isn't eye candy
like colored cables, but it really works, it's cheaper, and there is plenty
of tangible proof of benefit.
Last edited by JonfromCB; Feb 4, 2010 at 01:31 PM.
^ I was just giving reasons on why I dont think some manufacturers will do it. There are 3 transmissions for this car. say the manu only tested it on the 5at, people would want to know whats the benefit for the 7at and then the mt. Say the manu shifted at redline, people would say "i usually do my normal driving shifting around 3-4k rpms, whats the time difference there." Each ECU/TCM is also slightly different. I believe some ECU/TCM's are adaptable to peoples driving styles and therefore different from one car to another.
Ive driven some peoples G37s that werent mine and I noticed slightly different shift points while driving and that some cars shifted rougher than mine depending on how much my foot was on the throttle. Also, there are different TCM revisions. A manufacturer could do the test on a stock car right off the dealer lot with an older TCM revision and see different results in shift speed vs. a car with a later TCM revision.
Since I notice you are involved in the ester oil debate, do you want all manufactureres of different types of ester oils to do UOA's at different intervals on our car to show the silicon, iron, and copper particulates for each oil? What if one manufacturer did an oil change at 3750 and then 11250 and it showed not much wear at all, and then one manufacturer did an oil change immediately at 1000 miles, and then 7500 miles and the 7500 mile change showed a lot more wear.
My point was there are a lot of variables that change from car to car which can change the dynamics of a car. If a manufacturer came out and did one test, Im sure it wouldnt appease everyone, because it never does and Id like to think that some manufacturers are a little busy and do work over many different platforms on many different cars that they dont have the time to do every single test that someone asks for.
Thats why you see people putting their car on the dyno and measuing before and after gains and you see people doing their own UOAs. If I call exxonmobil and say theres a big debate in the ester oil thread and I see a lot of people use mobil 1 on our car, can they provide me with UOAs for a stock car at 3750 and 11250 miles so I can see how it compares to the stock nissan ester oil, do you think they would bother with that?
Now again, to clarify, Im not for grounding wires and I dont plan on getting them and I think for the 7at there might not be measurable gains because I think my tranny shifts pretty quick, I just think that for a lot of things if someone wants to prove or disprove it, its usually on them, and not the manufacturer. Has there even been a manufacturer which has claimed a benefit for the grounding wires that doesnt exist? Ive read BB's vendor thread and I think he perfectly states what these will and wont do.
Im not planning on getting grounding wires because I dont have any issues with my 7at. I think for an automatic (thats not a dual clutch), its one of the best shifting transmissions I have ever driven. So I cant speak for THIS car, but I can speak for my past car.
My last car had a 5 speed jatco transmission, which were notorious for shift lag. I didnt have paddle shifters, but the manumatic + and - on the transmission for shifting. A few guys in my car club did a similar test to what the OP wanted to do. On my stock car, from the point the transmission was completely in the + position, it took the car 1.2 seconds to complete the shift. And the shift was jerky. We installed the grounding kit, which took all of 10 minutes, reset the battery and went out and measured again and it took .7 seconds to complete the shift.
A difference of .5 seconds really might not mean much to some people, but you could feel the difference in the faster shifts.
As for empirical numbers for this car, I havent measured them because I never had a problem with how fast it shifted. I dont have much lag at all in my car and I think it shifts pretty fast. I probably only have about a .5 second delay time in my car so its pretty hard to see a noticeable gain on that shift time, especially on just grounding wires.
Now maybe if you did a lot of work on the transmission and upgraded the valvebodies you would see a noticeable increase, but thats also a lot more than 75 bucks.
You must have a pretty cheap shop around you, because for a complete flush and fill and top of the line tranny fluid, Ive never spent under 100 bucks.
And I completely agree that you are more likely to see a benefit of using a good synthetic tranny fuild for a few bucks more.
Ive driven some peoples G37s that werent mine and I noticed slightly different shift points while driving and that some cars shifted rougher than mine depending on how much my foot was on the throttle. Also, there are different TCM revisions. A manufacturer could do the test on a stock car right off the dealer lot with an older TCM revision and see different results in shift speed vs. a car with a later TCM revision.
Since I notice you are involved in the ester oil debate, do you want all manufactureres of different types of ester oils to do UOA's at different intervals on our car to show the silicon, iron, and copper particulates for each oil? What if one manufacturer did an oil change at 3750 and then 11250 and it showed not much wear at all, and then one manufacturer did an oil change immediately at 1000 miles, and then 7500 miles and the 7500 mile change showed a lot more wear.
My point was there are a lot of variables that change from car to car which can change the dynamics of a car. If a manufacturer came out and did one test, Im sure it wouldnt appease everyone, because it never does and Id like to think that some manufacturers are a little busy and do work over many different platforms on many different cars that they dont have the time to do every single test that someone asks for.
Thats why you see people putting their car on the dyno and measuing before and after gains and you see people doing their own UOAs. If I call exxonmobil and say theres a big debate in the ester oil thread and I see a lot of people use mobil 1 on our car, can they provide me with UOAs for a stock car at 3750 and 11250 miles so I can see how it compares to the stock nissan ester oil, do you think they would bother with that?
Now again, to clarify, Im not for grounding wires and I dont plan on getting them and I think for the 7at there might not be measurable gains because I think my tranny shifts pretty quick, I just think that for a lot of things if someone wants to prove or disprove it, its usually on them, and not the manufacturer. Has there even been a manufacturer which has claimed a benefit for the grounding wires that doesnt exist? Ive read BB's vendor thread and I think he perfectly states what these will and wont do.
Im not planning on getting grounding wires because I dont have any issues with my 7at. I think for an automatic (thats not a dual clutch), its one of the best shifting transmissions I have ever driven. So I cant speak for THIS car, but I can speak for my past car.
My last car had a 5 speed jatco transmission, which were notorious for shift lag. I didnt have paddle shifters, but the manumatic + and - on the transmission for shifting. A few guys in my car club did a similar test to what the OP wanted to do. On my stock car, from the point the transmission was completely in the + position, it took the car 1.2 seconds to complete the shift. And the shift was jerky. We installed the grounding kit, which took all of 10 minutes, reset the battery and went out and measured again and it took .7 seconds to complete the shift.
A difference of .5 seconds really might not mean much to some people, but you could feel the difference in the faster shifts.
As for empirical numbers for this car, I havent measured them because I never had a problem with how fast it shifted. I dont have much lag at all in my car and I think it shifts pretty fast. I probably only have about a .5 second delay time in my car so its pretty hard to see a noticeable gain on that shift time, especially on just grounding wires.
Now maybe if you did a lot of work on the transmission and upgraded the valvebodies you would see a noticeable increase, but thats also a lot more than 75 bucks.
I'd challenge anyone here to spend less than the cost of grounding
wires on a transmission fluid change with top-of-the-line fluid.
(Redline perhaps) and then tell us all if you notice any performance
change.
wires on a transmission fluid change with top-of-the-line fluid.
(Redline perhaps) and then tell us all if you notice any performance
change.
And I completely agree that you are more likely to see a benefit of using a good synthetic tranny fuild for a few bucks more.
Now this is what I like to see. We have established that a product exists and some question to the claims of performance improvment are on both sides of the fence. We agree that we have no proof? So as stated before, a test as the one I mentioned or some other test could be done I'm sure in a short time frame and put some end to this ongoing debate.
So again, do we have any takers?
I find it very funny that people question customers wanting a manufacture to have proof of a products ability to improve.
So again, do we have any takers?
I find it very funny that people question customers wanting a manufacture to have proof of a products ability to improve.
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 104
Likes: 2
From: Halifax, NS
I agree with SnoopDawg. Personally I think it might help clear up electrical noise and potentially alleviate loss easing life on the alternator... maybe. Some people with AT might notice a difference but I think most won't.
I thought they locked this thread. Guess not. Make it stop! For the love of god man! Make it stop!!
Fawk! If you dont think they work dont buy them!! If you dont care and $75 wont break you and you like how they look in the engine bay....Buy them!!!! End of story.
Fawk! If you dont think they work dont buy them!! If you dont care and $75 wont break you and you like how they look in the engine bay....Buy them!!!! End of story.
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