View Poll Results: What did YOU choose?
6MT
140
53.64%
5AT
121
46.36%
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6MT or 5AT
09-13-2007, 02:19 PM
#151
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Thanks for the interesting reply. I'm not really in agreement with your ice cream analogy and your other statements necessarily being valid for all people. In my case no I can't relate as I don't eat foods like ice cream or anything else to the point I dislike it or that adds notches to my belt.
RBull, you don’t have to be in agreement with me, I am not asking you to, neither am I trying to represent the whole driving population or you for that matter. My statement is strictly mine and it doesn’t have to be valid for everyone, I am expressing my own opinion. Read my post more carefully before jumping to generalizations and implying that I am trying to represent everyone. I started with: “Driving MT, at least from my perspective” and ended with “That’s just my experience of driving MT for 13 years”. Does that tell you anything? I followed the progression of how it worked for ME, in order to explain how and what got me from driving MT to AT. And why are you getting uptight on the ice cream story “I can't relate as I don't eat foods like ice cream”? That’s an example RBull. You don’t have to eat ice cream to follow the logic. Derive you own experiences. May be you liked donuts, I don’t know.
Where is it suggesting that it will lose the appeal for everyone? Are you reading a different post or something? Again if you get irritated by the fact that I use the word “you” that I sometimes use to conclude that I am representing you or everyone else is is highly innaccurate. I have not meant to offend anyone. How can I speak for the entire G, or US population for that matter? I clearly stated that I am talking about my experience. Replace any “You”s I have used with “I” when you read it if it bothers you, because I am not trying to describe your feelings for it.
For example people relax in a different ways. For me jumping in my car at the end of a day and running through the gears is a very relaxing experience. It uses your brain slightly more than driving an auto sure but so does changing the radio station or talking to a passenger. Reading a book also uses your brain more than just sitting there thoughtless too but is a relaxing experience for many. I am also someone that relaxes by going out for a 15 mile run at the end of work day too.
Using another ice cream analogy driving an AT is like eating vanilla ice cream every day. It tastes good but it is pretty plain and made to appeal to the palette of a large segment of the population, and suits a lot of occasions as well. Driving an MT however is like choosing from a basket of flavours each time you drive it. It takes some extra decisions and time to select the type you want that day and you may not like every flavour but it provides more variety, taste and interest when you drive.
I'm not following this statement. As I said above if you're trying to say it's only a matter of time before you will give up on an MT I would disagree. In my case and in the case of millions of drivers worldwide that's not true. FYI, I've been driving an MT for 32 years and I still enjoy it so yes I guess it does take a while, maybe forever.
.
I'm not following this statement. As I said above if you're trying to say it's only a matter of time before you will give up on an MT I would disagree. In my case and in the case of millions of drivers worldwide that's not true. FYI, I've been driving an MT for 32 years and I still enjoy it so yes I guess it does take a while, maybe forever.
.
Statements like yours about how “AT is like eating vanilla ice cream… It tastes good but it is pretty plain and made to appeal to the palette of a large segment of the population” are what got me to post in the first place. In various discussion boards in the US about 6MT vs. 5AT there is this repeated bashing from the MT guys. I’ve heard all sorts of derogative comments like “AT is for wusses, who can’t drive stick and just look for excuses like traffic” or that AT is for people with arthritis and on and on.Are you implying that those who drive an AT “representing a large segment of the population” that they are the “masses with plain tastes”? Do you think that driving an MT makes you a part of a small, elite circle of sophisticated people? I don’t understand what is it with this myth in the US that driving an MT is for people with special skills or high sophistication. I am speechless…even my grandmother in Europe can drive stick. “Driving an MT however is like choosing from a basket of flavours each time you drive it”. You probably have a sophisticated MT car that offers various gear ratios for you in each gear to enable you to enjoy a different experience every time
From my experience, a gear ratio is a gear ratio for a car, it works the same every time. For any given speed there is a corresponding RPM number for each gear. You learn exactly what to expect from your car and then it becomes a car like any other. It’s just an ice cream with a different flavor, but it doesn’t mean that it’s better or more sophisticated. It all depends on what flavor appeals to you. There is a very good reason why Infiniti expects a marketing mix of 69% for AT versus 31% for MT G37. You have to understand that different people have different priorities and they have reasons for choosing one over the other. One is certainly not better than the other, they are just different, and target different people. I don’t mind when people express their reasons for liking MT or AT, everyone is entitled to an opinion. What ticked me is the derogative remarks from the MT crowd. Yeah, I just had to respond here too. stoian21, it's clear you now dislike driving an MT. That's no reason to make these kind of exaggerations. Passenger heads don't get pinned to the seat any more than in an AT and certainly don't make it back close to the windshield. That might be true in a MacLaren F1 but I haven't driven or been a passenger in one.
No offense to anyone!
09-13-2007, 02:48 PM
#152
OK, I'll try to explain my logic beyond just how the car feels...
We've seen dynos showing similar WHP for 5AT and 6MT, so we know Infiniti has stopped handicapping the 5AT like in previous years. Also, the tires and wheels are now the same on a 5AT Sport as a 6MT, as is the final drive ratio. So, performance should come down to weight and gearing.
Gearing:
5AT ratios: 3.841, 2.352, 1.529, 1.00, 0.839
6MT ratios: 3.794, 2.324, 1.624, 1.271, 1.000, 0.794
Differences:
1st gear: 0.047 (1.2% 5AT)
2nd gear: 0.028 (1.2% 5AT)
3rd gear: 0.095 (5.6% 6MT)
4th gear: 0.271 (21.3% 6MT)
5th gear: 0.161 (16.1% 6MT)
6th gear: 0.045 5th vs 6th (5.4% 5AT cruising gears)
As you can see, the 5AT has an advantage in 1st gear and 2nd gear. This is no doubt designed to allow 5AT drivers to take off from a dig with similar performance to a 6MT (clutch drop). This results in the 0-60 times showing the 6MT only slightly faster. That doesn't add up, unless you factor in drive train loss, which is going to be slightly higher on the 5AT due to the torque converter and slightly faster shifts in the 6MT driven by a skilled driver.
In 3rd gear, the 6mt gains an advantage greater than the 5AT's 1st and 2nd gear advantages put together. In 4th gear, the 6MT gains an advantage greater than all advantages put together before that gear. It's obvious the 6MT will feel like a faster car at speeds above 2nd gear, from these numbers. Whether or not it shows in the numbers depends on what kind of race we're talking about. zero to top speed, the 6MT would demonstrate a very significant advantage. 0-35, I bet the 5AT would be a little faster. 0-60, they're almost even, 60-95, the 6MT would easily win. 0-100, very close again. 0-120, 6MT would easily win. So it all depends... the numbers are not as important as how the car responds to the gas pedal, IMO.
This is why you see 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that are very similar for the 5AT and the 6MT. Infiniti shortened the gears on the 5AT to help the 0-60 performance numbers. In the 1/4 mile, the 6MT has just selected 4th gear at 99mph while the 5AT is still in 3rd until 106mph. Even though the 6MT is now operating at a whopping 21% power multiplication advantage, both cars cross the line before it makes any real difference. However, if you were sitting in the cars, you would feel the 21% advantage in the 6MT... and if the race went on a little longer, the 6MT would start to eat at the 5AT even worse than it did in 3rd.
The 5AT also has a noticeably shorter cruising gear in 5th vs. 6th comparisons. This is done to keep the 5AT from feeling sluggish on the highway since the only option it would have if it needs to accelerate is to shift into 4th or 3rd gear, which would be a massive jump in RPMs. However, the 6MT can down shift into 5th and have the same ratio as the 5AT in 4th, or it can select 3rd which is a nice balance between the 5AT's 4th and 3rd gears. That is to say, at highway speeds (around here 70MPH), the 5AT will either under accelerate or rev really high and take off, whereas the 6MT can choose an aggressive but not frantic gear. Also, under normal cruising, the 5AT will burn more fuel running at the higher RPM due to the shorter cruising gear.
Weight is pretty much a wash. The 6MT has a 14lb weight advantage, similarly equipped. I don't expect that would be noticeable at all....
From my test drive, I was noticing how the car responds to the gas pedal at 2nd gear vs. 3rd gear at 4-5k rpm point. That's what I refer to as "how fast the car feels" and the 5AT I was driving felt almost as fast as my 06 6mt in 2nd gear at 5k rpms but much slower in 3rd at 5k rpms.
Hope that helps clarify what I've been trying to say...
We've seen dynos showing similar WHP for 5AT and 6MT, so we know Infiniti has stopped handicapping the 5AT like in previous years. Also, the tires and wheels are now the same on a 5AT Sport as a 6MT, as is the final drive ratio. So, performance should come down to weight and gearing.
Gearing:
5AT ratios: 3.841, 2.352, 1.529, 1.00, 0.839
6MT ratios: 3.794, 2.324, 1.624, 1.271, 1.000, 0.794
Differences:
1st gear: 0.047 (1.2% 5AT)
2nd gear: 0.028 (1.2% 5AT)
3rd gear: 0.095 (5.6% 6MT)
4th gear: 0.271 (21.3% 6MT)
5th gear: 0.161 (16.1% 6MT)
6th gear: 0.045 5th vs 6th (5.4% 5AT cruising gears)
As you can see, the 5AT has an advantage in 1st gear and 2nd gear. This is no doubt designed to allow 5AT drivers to take off from a dig with similar performance to a 6MT (clutch drop). This results in the 0-60 times showing the 6MT only slightly faster. That doesn't add up, unless you factor in drive train loss, which is going to be slightly higher on the 5AT due to the torque converter and slightly faster shifts in the 6MT driven by a skilled driver.
In 3rd gear, the 6mt gains an advantage greater than the 5AT's 1st and 2nd gear advantages put together. In 4th gear, the 6MT gains an advantage greater than all advantages put together before that gear. It's obvious the 6MT will feel like a faster car at speeds above 2nd gear, from these numbers. Whether or not it shows in the numbers depends on what kind of race we're talking about. zero to top speed, the 6MT would demonstrate a very significant advantage. 0-35, I bet the 5AT would be a little faster. 0-60, they're almost even, 60-95, the 6MT would easily win. 0-100, very close again. 0-120, 6MT would easily win. So it all depends... the numbers are not as important as how the car responds to the gas pedal, IMO.
This is why you see 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that are very similar for the 5AT and the 6MT. Infiniti shortened the gears on the 5AT to help the 0-60 performance numbers. In the 1/4 mile, the 6MT has just selected 4th gear at 99mph while the 5AT is still in 3rd until 106mph. Even though the 6MT is now operating at a whopping 21% power multiplication advantage, both cars cross the line before it makes any real difference. However, if you were sitting in the cars, you would feel the 21% advantage in the 6MT... and if the race went on a little longer, the 6MT would start to eat at the 5AT even worse than it did in 3rd.
The 5AT also has a noticeably shorter cruising gear in 5th vs. 6th comparisons. This is done to keep the 5AT from feeling sluggish on the highway since the only option it would have if it needs to accelerate is to shift into 4th or 3rd gear, which would be a massive jump in RPMs. However, the 6MT can down shift into 5th and have the same ratio as the 5AT in 4th, or it can select 3rd which is a nice balance between the 5AT's 4th and 3rd gears. That is to say, at highway speeds (around here 70MPH), the 5AT will either under accelerate or rev really high and take off, whereas the 6MT can choose an aggressive but not frantic gear. Also, under normal cruising, the 5AT will burn more fuel running at the higher RPM due to the shorter cruising gear.
Weight is pretty much a wash. The 6MT has a 14lb weight advantage, similarly equipped. I don't expect that would be noticeable at all....
From my test drive, I was noticing how the car responds to the gas pedal at 2nd gear vs. 3rd gear at 4-5k rpm point. That's what I refer to as "how fast the car feels" and the 5AT I was driving felt almost as fast as my 06 6mt in 2nd gear at 5k rpms but much slower in 3rd at 5k rpms.
Hope that helps clarify what I've been trying to say...
That same torque converter also adds more torque multiplication in the higher gears. Without knowing the specefic operational output of the TC the only thing we have to look at are some performance results.
The 6MT gets to 60 first (by about 2 tenths of a second) It is in the higher speeds where the AT begins to catch up ever so slightly. All of the test results are pretty cosistent.
You say that the 08 AT feels almost as fast as your 07 MT. Well there again the numbers show that the 08 5AT is quicker than the previous generation's 6MT.It gets to 100 well before the 07s. So you cant base results on feel. The G feels slower than a lot of cars than it is faster than.
You say that the 6MT would easily win from 60- 95. None of the trap speed results give that indication. The 6MT reaches 60 first and things level out from there. It doesn't matter if the numbers presented at higher speeds are from a dig or not. The only difference taking off from a dig makes is in 0-60 foot times (0-10MPH/ 0-30 MPH) Once you level off the car is generally going to accelerate at the same pace (after the starting speeds) as it would from a roll in those same gears.
As far as response times are concerned when dropping a gear and accelerating, the time that is takes for a manual driver to engage the clutch and downshift is about the time it takes for the AT to engage the torque converter and go. The difference is the fact that when you slap the paddles, you are expecting it to go directly into gear and it takes a slip second to do it. On the 6MT you don't select a gear until you engage the clutch. That "free spin" that you mention is quicker than you make it out to be. Additionally, I don't/ haven't experience slow or sloppy shifts at full throttle.
There is no question that the two cars are going to feel different. And if you are used to or prefer an MT then of coarse it may feel like there is less performance because that is what you are used to subscribing to. But there is nothing presented to substantiate a difference in acceleration.
09-13-2007, 04:15 PM
#153
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So then Edmunds, Automobile Mag, and Motor Trend must have all had poor launches as well... They all got similar times. The comparision between the AT and MT that I made was with Edmunds not Car and Driver.
In addition the trap speeds should be significantly faster on the 6MT than what has been reported thus far on the 5AT in order for the 6MT to be quicker and "noticeable, especially in gears 3-6". To say that the 6MT will "devour" a 5AT from a roll is unsubstantiated. I have raced too many 6MTs from a roll without being "devoured" even in my '03 5AT. In addition if Car and Driver got a poor launch (I don't remember reading that) then why not try again(?) C/D always posts their best acheived times- they often try multiple launches to get the best one.
With all due respect (not trying to be argumentative) I think that some who prefer the 6MT like to beleive that they have an advantage in acceleration but the truth of the matter is that all reports that we have seen thus far by professional drivers, with statistics to subtantiate their findings, prove otherwise. I would challenge you to show me numbers that indicate that the '08 6MT is significantly faster than the 5AT: How about a dyno chart(?) If you take a look back on this thread you will see dyno charts and stats showing otherwise.
If you are basing your opinion on the way the car felt when you drove it then many of your Hondas with VTEC are quicker than the G because many of them actually "feel" faster.
In addition the trap speeds should be significantly faster on the 6MT than what has been reported thus far on the 5AT in order for the 6MT to be quicker and "noticeable, especially in gears 3-6". To say that the 6MT will "devour" a 5AT from a roll is unsubstantiated. I have raced too many 6MTs from a roll without being "devoured" even in my '03 5AT. In addition if Car and Driver got a poor launch (I don't remember reading that) then why not try again(?) C/D always posts their best acheived times- they often try multiple launches to get the best one.
With all due respect (not trying to be argumentative) I think that some who prefer the 6MT like to beleive that they have an advantage in acceleration but the truth of the matter is that all reports that we have seen thus far by professional drivers, with statistics to subtantiate their findings, prove otherwise. I would challenge you to show me numbers that indicate that the '08 6MT is significantly faster than the 5AT: How about a dyno chart(?) If you take a look back on this thread you will see dyno charts and stats showing otherwise.
If you are basing your opinion on the way the car felt when you drove it then many of your Hondas with VTEC are quicker than the G because many of them actually "feel" faster.
09-13-2007, 04:31 PM
#154
LOL.. It's all part of the first year growing pains of a car forum. When the '03s came out there was a similar discussion that lasted for some 12 pages I beleive. This one is pretty civil in comparison to some of the others I've seen I thought.
09-13-2007, 04:31 PM
#155
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Whys is that when a guy who likes an AT and expresses an opinion in favor of it, there are always MT drivers who jump on him and become irritated and argumentative? I don’t see the opposite happening.
RBull, you don’t have to be in agreement with me, I am not asking you to, neither am I trying to represent the whole driving population or you for that matter. My statement is strictly mine and it doesn’t have to be valid for everyone, I am expressing my own opinion. Read my post more carefully before jumping to generalizations and implying that I am trying to represent everyone. I started with: “Driving MT, at least from my perspective” and ended with “That’s just my experience of driving MT for 13 years”. Does that tell you anything? I followed the progression of how it worked for ME, in order to explain how and what got me from driving MT to AT. And why are you getting uptight on the ice cream story “I can't relate as I don't eat foods like ice cream”? That’s an example RBull. You don’t have to eat ice cream to follow the logic. Derive you own experiences. May be you liked donuts, I don’t know.
Where is it suggesting that it will lose the appeal for everyone? Are you reading a different post or something? Again if you get irritated by the fact that I use the word “you” that I sometimes use to conclude that I am representing you or everyone else is is highly innaccurate. I have not meant to offend anyone. How can I speak for the entire G, or US population for that matter? I clearly stated that I am talking about my experience. Replace any “You”s I have used with “I” when you read it if it bothers you, because I am not trying to describe your feelings for it.
I am not trying to argue with you about how you should drive or relax. If you find shifting gears relaxing, by all means do it, no one is stopping you. If you want to shift say 3,000 times a day for another 32 years if that’s what takes you to relax, do whatever works for you. That’s your personal choice. All I said was that the appeal wore off for me after a while and it became more of a burden than a pleasure. If you can’t relate to it, so be it, you don’t have to.
I thought you said you can’t relate to my ice cream story because you don’t eat ice cream Statements like yours about how “AT is like eating vanilla ice cream… It tastes good but it is pretty plain and made to appeal to the palette of a large segment of the population” are what got me to post in the first place. In various discussion boards in the US about 6MT vs. 5AT there is this repeated bashing from the MT guys. I’ve heard all sorts of derogative comments like “AT is for wusses, who can’t drive stick and just look for excuses like traffic” or that AT is for people with arthritis and on and on.
Are you implying that those who drive an AT “representing a large segment of the population” that they are the “masses with plain tastes”? Do you think that driving an MT makes you a part of a small, elite circle of sophisticated people? I don’t understand what is it with this myth in the US that driving an MT is for people with special skills or high sophistication. I am speechless…even my grandmother in Europe can drive stick. “Driving an MT however is like choosing from a basket of flavours each time you drive it”. You probably have a sophisticated MT car that offers various gear ratios for you in each gear to enable you to enjoy a different experience every time From my experience, a gear ratio is a gear ratio for a car, it works the same every time. For any given speed there is a corresponding RPM number for each gear. You learn exactly what to expect from your car and then it becomes a car like any other. It’s just an ice cream with a different flavor, but it doesn’t mean that it’s better or more sophisticated. It all depends on what flavor appeals to you. There is a very good reason why Infiniti expects a marketing mix of 69% for AT versus 31% for MT G37. You have to understand that different people have different priorities and they have reasons for choosing one over the other. One is certainly not better than the other, they are just different, and target different people. I don’t mind when people express their reasons for liking MT or AT, everyone is entitled to an opinion. What ticked me is the derogative remarks from the MT crowd.
There is a ton of research and scientific data about manual man-machine interaction vs automation and its apllication and also on how it relates to availability of cognitive resources. You’ll learn a lot about fatigue in there. Find a human factors book and read up on it.
RBull, don’t take everything verbatim. I am trying to create a visualization. Of course your head doesn’t hit the windshield in the G (have you ever watched cartoons?) but the point I am trying to make is that it is more pronounced.And no I do not detest driving MT, a detest the way some MT drivers look down on AT drivers.
No offense to anyone!
RBull, you don’t have to be in agreement with me, I am not asking you to, neither am I trying to represent the whole driving population or you for that matter. My statement is strictly mine and it doesn’t have to be valid for everyone, I am expressing my own opinion. Read my post more carefully before jumping to generalizations and implying that I am trying to represent everyone. I started with: “Driving MT, at least from my perspective” and ended with “That’s just my experience of driving MT for 13 years”. Does that tell you anything? I followed the progression of how it worked for ME, in order to explain how and what got me from driving MT to AT. And why are you getting uptight on the ice cream story “I can't relate as I don't eat foods like ice cream”? That’s an example RBull. You don’t have to eat ice cream to follow the logic. Derive you own experiences. May be you liked donuts, I don’t know.
Where is it suggesting that it will lose the appeal for everyone? Are you reading a different post or something? Again if you get irritated by the fact that I use the word “you” that I sometimes use to conclude that I am representing you or everyone else is is highly innaccurate. I have not meant to offend anyone. How can I speak for the entire G, or US population for that matter? I clearly stated that I am talking about my experience. Replace any “You”s I have used with “I” when you read it if it bothers you, because I am not trying to describe your feelings for it.
I am not trying to argue with you about how you should drive or relax. If you find shifting gears relaxing, by all means do it, no one is stopping you. If you want to shift say 3,000 times a day for another 32 years if that’s what takes you to relax, do whatever works for you. That’s your personal choice. All I said was that the appeal wore off for me after a while and it became more of a burden than a pleasure. If you can’t relate to it, so be it, you don’t have to.
I thought you said you can’t relate to my ice cream story because you don’t eat ice cream
Statements like yours about how “AT is like eating vanilla ice cream… It tastes good but it is pretty plain and made to appeal to the palette of a large segment of the population” are what got me to post in the first place. In various discussion boards in the US about 6MT vs. 5AT there is this repeated bashing from the MT guys. I’ve heard all sorts of derogative comments like “AT is for wusses, who can’t drive stick and just look for excuses like traffic” or that AT is for people with arthritis and on and on.Are you implying that those who drive an AT “representing a large segment of the population” that they are the “masses with plain tastes”? Do you think that driving an MT makes you a part of a small, elite circle of sophisticated people? I don’t understand what is it with this myth in the US that driving an MT is for people with special skills or high sophistication. I am speechless…even my grandmother in Europe can drive stick. “Driving an MT however is like choosing from a basket of flavours each time you drive it”. You probably have a sophisticated MT car that offers various gear ratios for you in each gear to enable you to enjoy a different experience every time
From my experience, a gear ratio is a gear ratio for a car, it works the same every time. For any given speed there is a corresponding RPM number for each gear. You learn exactly what to expect from your car and then it becomes a car like any other. It’s just an ice cream with a different flavor, but it doesn’t mean that it’s better or more sophisticated. It all depends on what flavor appeals to you. There is a very good reason why Infiniti expects a marketing mix of 69% for AT versus 31% for MT G37. You have to understand that different people have different priorities and they have reasons for choosing one over the other. One is certainly not better than the other, they are just different, and target different people. I don’t mind when people express their reasons for liking MT or AT, everyone is entitled to an opinion. What ticked me is the derogative remarks from the MT crowd. There is a ton of research and scientific data about manual man-machine interaction vs automation and its apllication and also on how it relates to availability of cognitive resources. You’ll learn a lot about fatigue in there. Find a human factors book and read up on it.
RBull, don’t take everything verbatim. I am trying to create a visualization. Of course your head doesn’t hit the windshield in the G (have you ever watched cartoons?) but the point I am trying to make is that it is more pronounced.And no I do not detest driving MT, a detest the way some MT drivers look down on AT drivers.
No offense to anyone!
09-13-2007, 04:39 PM
#156
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I was just posting my opinion on the issue and I am not forcing anyone to adopt it or to agree with me. Also I am not looking to argue with the MT crowd or to convince them of anything, so don’t feel like you have to make a “smart” remark about AT drivers or always come back with something to feel on top. This post is for everyone to express their opinion about what they like or dislike about either one, so that others can form their own opinion, without the poster getting bashed about it. If you don’t agree with someone’s idea, just move on, you don’t have to. Just don’t bash or make derogative remarks about views or opinions that don’t coincide with yours. This thread is not about arguing it out so that we can all come to a one conclusion. We’ll never get anywhere.
09-13-2007, 04:53 PM
#157
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I see what you are saying however, the shorter gears do less to help the 5AT start well from a dig than does the high stall torque converter. In the 6MT you are dropping the clutch from a dig. There is no way the 5AT can make up for that with just the slight difference in gear ratios as listed- thats where the torque converter comes in.
That same torque converter also adds more torque multiplication in the higher gears. Without knowing the specefic operational output of the TC the only thing we have to look at are some performance results.
The 6MT gets to 60 first (by about 2 tenths of a second) It is in the higher speeds where the AT begins to catch up ever so slightly. All of the test results are pretty cosistent.
You say that the 08 AT feels almost as fast as your 07 MT. Well there again the numbers show that the 08 5AT is quicker than the previous generation's 6MT.It gets to 100 well before the 07s. So you cant base results on feel. The G feels slower than a lot of cars than it is faster than.
You say that the 6MT would easily win from 60- 95. None of the trap speed results give that indication. The 6MT reaches 60 first and things level out from there. It doesn't matter if the numbers presented at higher speeds are from a dig or not. The only difference taking off from a dig makes is in 0-60 foot times (0-10MPH/ 0-30 MPH) Once you level off the car is generally going to accelerate at the same pace (after the starting speeds) as it would from a roll in those same gears.
As far as response times are concerned when dropping a gear and accelerating, the time that is takes for a manual driver to engage the clutch and downshift is about the time it takes for the AT to engage the torque converter and go. The difference is the fact that when you slap the paddles, you are expecting it to go directly into gear and it takes a slip second to do it. On the 6MT you don't select a gear until you engage the clutch. That "free spin" that you mention is quicker than you make it out to be. Additionally, I don't/ haven't experience slow or sloppy shifts at full throttle.
There is no question that the two cars are going to feel different. And if you are used to or prefer an MT then of coarse it may feel like there is less performance because that is what you are used to subscribing to. But there is nothing presented to substantiate a difference in acceleration.
That same torque converter also adds more torque multiplication in the higher gears. Without knowing the specefic operational output of the TC the only thing we have to look at are some performance results.
The 6MT gets to 60 first (by about 2 tenths of a second) It is in the higher speeds where the AT begins to catch up ever so slightly. All of the test results are pretty cosistent.
You say that the 08 AT feels almost as fast as your 07 MT. Well there again the numbers show that the 08 5AT is quicker than the previous generation's 6MT.It gets to 100 well before the 07s. So you cant base results on feel. The G feels slower than a lot of cars than it is faster than.
You say that the 6MT would easily win from 60- 95. None of the trap speed results give that indication. The 6MT reaches 60 first and things level out from there. It doesn't matter if the numbers presented at higher speeds are from a dig or not. The only difference taking off from a dig makes is in 0-60 foot times (0-10MPH/ 0-30 MPH) Once you level off the car is generally going to accelerate at the same pace (after the starting speeds) as it would from a roll in those same gears.
As far as response times are concerned when dropping a gear and accelerating, the time that is takes for a manual driver to engage the clutch and downshift is about the time it takes for the AT to engage the torque converter and go. The difference is the fact that when you slap the paddles, you are expecting it to go directly into gear and it takes a slip second to do it. On the 6MT you don't select a gear until you engage the clutch. That "free spin" that you mention is quicker than you make it out to be. Additionally, I don't/ haven't experience slow or sloppy shifts at full throttle.
There is no question that the two cars are going to feel different. And if you are used to or prefer an MT then of coarse it may feel like there is less performance because that is what you are used to subscribing to. But there is nothing presented to substantiate a difference in acceleration.
09-13-2007, 06:08 PM
#158
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OK, Now I'm the one getting irritated. I never said it was about racing. What I said was, if you want a 5AT, don't try to tell yourself there is not a performance difference and so it's ok to get one. If you want one, get one because you want it, who cares if it is slower -- driving is not about racing.
If someone is going to be here claiming there is not a performance difference, I'm going to call them out on it because it is not true. I don't care if the numbers don't show it YET, we've not had any true apples-to-apples comparisons between the cars on the same day at the same track. I'm saying, the science supports the 6mt being the faster car, and that's the facts.
Basically the gist is paragraph one -- if u want an automatic, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't don't come on a public forum and misinform to try to feel better about it. If you need to try to feel better about it, you made the wrong choice.
When I'm stuck in traffic with my 6MT I wish I had a 5AT sometimes... I'm not afraid to say it and it doesn't matter one bit to a new prospective buyer.
If someone is going to be here claiming there is not a performance difference, I'm going to call them out on it because it is not true. I don't care if the numbers don't show it YET, we've not had any true apples-to-apples comparisons between the cars on the same day at the same track. I'm saying, the science supports the 6mt being the faster car, and that's the facts.
Basically the gist is paragraph one -- if u want an automatic, there's nothing wrong with that, just don't don't come on a public forum and misinform to try to feel better about it. If you need to try to feel better about it, you made the wrong choice.
When I'm stuck in traffic with my 6MT I wish I had a 5AT sometimes... I'm not afraid to say it and it doesn't matter one bit to a new prospective buyer.
Driving is not just about racing! I said that I am not after aggressive driving or to race with your MT but to enjoy a nice, smooth, and powerful acceleration on the highway. The G is not a race car and I am not judging it on its racing abilities. I gave MT credit by saying that the MT is faster in 3rd because of the gear ratio. If that’s what is important to you have fun! I just happen to like 3rd gear in AT better than MT. Am not looking to scratch your ego but at the same time I don’t care if you are going to “annihilate” me in 3rd, if that makes you feel superior. That’s not important to me. Otherwise, I would have gotten the MT. I am not aiming for the finish line and I am not trying to compare my John size to yours. I am talking about my experience as it strictly relates to me and how I feel driving an AT vs an MT car.
I was just posting my opinion on the issue and I am not forcing anyone to adopt it or to agree with me. Also I am not looking to argue with the MT crowd or to convince them of anything, so don’t feel like you have to make a “smart” remark about AT drivers or always come back with something to feel on top. This post is for everyone to express their opinion about what they like or dislike about either one, so that others can form their own opinion, without the poster getting bashed about it. If you don’t agree with someone’s idea, just move on, you don’t have to. Just don’t bash or make derogative remarks about views or opinions that don’t coincide with yours. This thread is not about arguing it out so that we can all come to a one conclusion. We’ll never get anywhere.
I was just posting my opinion on the issue and I am not forcing anyone to adopt it or to agree with me. Also I am not looking to argue with the MT crowd or to convince them of anything, so don’t feel like you have to make a “smart” remark about AT drivers or always come back with something to feel on top. This post is for everyone to express their opinion about what they like or dislike about either one, so that others can form their own opinion, without the poster getting bashed about it. If you don’t agree with someone’s idea, just move on, you don’t have to. Just don’t bash or make derogative remarks about views or opinions that don’t coincide with yours. This thread is not about arguing it out so that we can all come to a one conclusion. We’ll never get anywhere.
09-13-2007, 06:17 PM
#159
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I thought the 5AT felt beastly.. I mean it certainly had more pull off the bat than my Integra. I mean the TQ is like 4-5 times that of what my car has... (not exact numbers but very close). I just had grins all over my face when I came back. Every car I've driven in, had at least or less than 200hp *engine*. The MK3 Supra had a turbo that was going bad, so I didn't experience the real pull. Well I take my last statement back, I've driven in a STi stock and a modded 02 WRX with 600awhp, but those were several years ago and the feeling has yet been lost as well as the memory.
I keep going back and forth in my mind, "ok the auto will be nice and smooth, way more power than what I'm used to which I will obviously notice, has the option to manually shift with some limitations and has one less gear. Then the 6MT has one more gear, same power, has the clutch 24/7 and I can control my gears better, but then the manual mode on the AT would allow me to do this to a certain point." It's all wishy washy lol.
No tracking the car, No drag racing, maybe some spirited driving to unleash the beast within the car, but mostly, i'll be babying the car since it'll be my first Brand new car, and 2nd car all together since i've been driving.
I keep going back and forth in my mind, "ok the auto will be nice and smooth, way more power than what I'm used to which I will obviously notice, has the option to manually shift with some limitations and has one less gear. Then the 6MT has one more gear, same power, has the clutch 24/7 and I can control my gears better, but then the manual mode on the AT would allow me to do this to a certain point." It's all wishy washy lol.
No tracking the car, No drag racing, maybe some spirited driving to unleash the beast within the car, but mostly, i'll be babying the car since it'll be my first Brand new car, and 2nd car all together since i've been driving.
09-13-2007, 06:18 PM
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Torque multiplication does not occur when the torque converter is locked up. The torque converter will lock up at about 3k when it stalls, or about 4k via ECU command. After it is locked up, it is similar to an engaged clutch. There is no torque multiplication in higher gears unless your torque converter is not locked, which means you will be losing power overall. Prove otherwise and I'll thank you for teaching me how a torque converter works.
The clutch drop from a dig is not that much better than the high stall converter. They are both designed to get the engine RPMs high before engaging the drive wheels. Both are valid approaches. The AT's torque multiplication will help cancel out the MT launch. I agree that a hard core launch on the MT is beyond what the AT can deal with, but for most aggressive launches it will compare well.
The trap times all end at barely above 100mph. Like I said, at this point in the "race" the 6MT has just selected 4th gear at 99mph and is at a 21% advantage in torque at the wheels as soon as the 5AT hits 106 and selects the much longer 4th. At 102mph, the 5AT is nearing redline in 3rd with a locked up torque converter providing no multiplication. If let the race continue for a little longer the 6MT will make plenty good use of that 21% 4th gear advantage.
I stand by my comment that the 6MT will easily win 60-95. I picked 95 because both cars are in 3rd up until that point and the 6MT has a 6% advantage in torque at the wheels.
The discussion is fun, as it makes me think about cars and physics, both of which I really love. But... it's pretty moot. It comes down to feel and what you prefer. I don't like how a AT feels off-throttle. I don't like having to ride the brake down a hill. I don't like the manual downshift taking longer than it should sometimes and somtimes mysteriously revmatching incorrectly. I _prefer_ to deal w/ the 6MT.
The 6MT is faster though, period. The math doesn't work any other way. You will have to prove to me that the 5AT torque converter somehow multiplies torque while locked up (?!?) to make me think otherwise... the gears are shorter and all else is equal. No way the 5AT is the same.
The clutch drop from a dig is not that much better than the high stall converter. They are both designed to get the engine RPMs high before engaging the drive wheels. Both are valid approaches. The AT's torque multiplication will help cancel out the MT launch. I agree that a hard core launch on the MT is beyond what the AT can deal with, but for most aggressive launches it will compare well.
The trap times all end at barely above 100mph. Like I said, at this point in the "race" the 6MT has just selected 4th gear at 99mph and is at a 21% advantage in torque at the wheels as soon as the 5AT hits 106 and selects the much longer 4th. At 102mph, the 5AT is nearing redline in 3rd with a locked up torque converter providing no multiplication. If let the race continue for a little longer the 6MT will make plenty good use of that 21% 4th gear advantage.
I stand by my comment that the 6MT will easily win 60-95. I picked 95 because both cars are in 3rd up until that point and the 6MT has a 6% advantage in torque at the wheels.
The discussion is fun, as it makes me think about cars and physics, both of which I really love. But... it's pretty moot. It comes down to feel and what you prefer. I don't like how a AT feels off-throttle. I don't like having to ride the brake down a hill. I don't like the manual downshift taking longer than it should sometimes and somtimes mysteriously revmatching incorrectly. I _prefer_ to deal w/ the 6MT.
The 6MT is faster though, period. The math doesn't work any other way. You will have to prove to me that the 5AT torque converter somehow multiplies torque while locked up (?!?) to make me think otherwise... the gears are shorter and all else is equal. No way the 5AT is the same.
I see what you are saying however, the shorter gears do less to help the 5AT start well from a dig than does the high stall torque converter. In the 6MT you are dropping the clutch from a dig. There is no way the 5AT can make up for that with just the slight difference in gear ratios as listed- thats where the torque converter comes in.
That same torque converter also adds more torque multiplication in the higher gears. Without knowing the specefic operational output of the TC the only thing we have to look at are some performance results.
The 6MT gets to 60 first (by about 2 tenths of a second) It is in the higher speeds where the AT begins to catch up ever so slightly. All of the test results are pretty cosistent.
You say that the 08 AT feels almost as fast as your 07 MT. Well there again the numbers show that the 08 5AT is quicker than the previous generation's 6MT.It gets to 100 well before the 07s. So you cant base results on feel. The G feels slower than a lot of cars than it is faster than.
You say that the 6MT would easily win from 60- 95. None of the trap speed results give that indication. The 6MT reaches 60 first and things level out from there. It doesn't matter if the numbers presented at higher speeds are from a dig or not. The only difference taking off from a dig makes is in 0-60 foot times (0-10MPH/ 0-30 MPH) Once you level off the car is generally going to accelerate at the same pace (after the starting speeds) as it would from a roll in those same gears.
As far as response times are concerned when dropping a gear and accelerating, the time that is takes for a manual driver to engage the clutch and downshift is about the time it takes for the AT to engage the torque converter and go. The difference is the fact that when you slap the paddles, you are expecting it to go directly into gear and it takes a slip second to do it. On the 6MT you don't select a gear until you engage the clutch. That "free spin" that you mention is quicker than you make it out to be. Additionally, I don't/ haven't experience slow or sloppy shifts at full throttle.
There is no question that the two cars are going to feel different. And if you are used to or prefer an MT then of coarse it may feel like there is less performance because that is what you are used to subscribing to. But there is nothing presented to substantiate a difference in acceleration.
That same torque converter also adds more torque multiplication in the higher gears. Without knowing the specefic operational output of the TC the only thing we have to look at are some performance results.
The 6MT gets to 60 first (by about 2 tenths of a second) It is in the higher speeds where the AT begins to catch up ever so slightly. All of the test results are pretty cosistent.
You say that the 08 AT feels almost as fast as your 07 MT. Well there again the numbers show that the 08 5AT is quicker than the previous generation's 6MT.It gets to 100 well before the 07s. So you cant base results on feel. The G feels slower than a lot of cars than it is faster than.
You say that the 6MT would easily win from 60- 95. None of the trap speed results give that indication. The 6MT reaches 60 first and things level out from there. It doesn't matter if the numbers presented at higher speeds are from a dig or not. The only difference taking off from a dig makes is in 0-60 foot times (0-10MPH/ 0-30 MPH) Once you level off the car is generally going to accelerate at the same pace (after the starting speeds) as it would from a roll in those same gears.
As far as response times are concerned when dropping a gear and accelerating, the time that is takes for a manual driver to engage the clutch and downshift is about the time it takes for the AT to engage the torque converter and go. The difference is the fact that when you slap the paddles, you are expecting it to go directly into gear and it takes a slip second to do it. On the 6MT you don't select a gear until you engage the clutch. That "free spin" that you mention is quicker than you make it out to be. Additionally, I don't/ haven't experience slow or sloppy shifts at full throttle.
There is no question that the two cars are going to feel different. And if you are used to or prefer an MT then of coarse it may feel like there is less performance because that is what you are used to subscribing to. But there is nothing presented to substantiate a difference in acceleration.
09-13-2007, 06:46 PM
#161
why is it that Kahboom seems to be the only one not getting upset and just states the facts in an un-bias manner. I like numbers numbers don't lie. If a new set of repeatable numbers come out later that can proove him wrong I am sure he will accept them. Man i like pure science. only the facts, way to go kahboom!
09-13-2007, 07:06 PM
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I think we need another post on this forum which should be divided into 50 watermelon lovers and 50 cantaloupe lovers and each side will try to convince the other why their fruit tastes better.
I personally think that watermelons are much better for you because they are red on the inside.
I personally think that watermelons are much better for you because they are red on the inside.
09-13-2007, 07:08 PM
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I thought the 5AT felt beastly.. I mean it certainly had more pull off the bat than my Integra. I mean the TQ is like 4-5 times that of what my car has... (not exact numbers but very close). I just had grins all over my face when I came back. Every car I've driven in, had at least or less than 200hp *engine*. The MK3 Supra had a turbo that was going bad, so I didn't experience the real pull. Well I take my last statement back, I've driven in a STi stock and a modded 02 WRX with 600awhp, but those were several years ago and the feeling has yet been lost as well as the memory.
I keep going back and forth in my mind, "ok the auto will be nice and smooth, way more power than what I'm used to which I will obviously notice, has the option to manually shift with some limitations and has one less gear. Then the 6MT has one more gear, same power, has the clutch 24/7 and I can control my gears better, but then the manual mode on the AT would allow me to do this to a certain point." It's all wishy washy lol.
No tracking the car, No drag racing, maybe some spirited driving to unleash the beast within the car, but mostly, i'll be babying the car since it'll be my first Brand new car, and 2nd car all together since i've been driving.
I keep going back and forth in my mind, "ok the auto will be nice and smooth, way more power than what I'm used to which I will obviously notice, has the option to manually shift with some limitations and has one less gear. Then the 6MT has one more gear, same power, has the clutch 24/7 and I can control my gears better, but then the manual mode on the AT would allow me to do this to a certain point." It's all wishy washy lol.
No tracking the car, No drag racing, maybe some spirited driving to unleash the beast within the car, but mostly, i'll be babying the car since it'll be my first Brand new car, and 2nd car all together since i've been driving.
09-13-2007, 07:09 PM
#165
Registered User
Nutrionally, cantaloupes are healthier. However, I prefer watermelon.
Cantaloupes - http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=17
Watermelons - http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=31
Cantaloupes - http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=17
Watermelons - http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...dspice&dbid=31