Rough and noisy at startup
04-06-2010, 11:52 AM
#16
I disagree. It's not normal. If anyone hears noise on startup that sounds
like metal-to-metal; that's exactly what it is. Metal-to-metal means
parts are not lubricated adequately and if they are making an unmistakable
metal-to-metal sound, they are wearing substantially
in ways never intended....period. "dry" parts at startup should
not last longer than 5, 10 seconds at most and can usually be
cured with the right oil. Noise as described for longer than
5-10 seconds are often an indication of other issues such
as bad oil pump, clogged filter, clogged or choked lines, bad lifter
stretched or bad timing chain, parking on a incline, or even valve deposits
from bad gas or engine lugging from driving in too high a gear too
often. Another possible issue that the VQ37 is prone too, is
sheared oil won't let the VVEL actuator motor build up
pressure fast enough which can lead to actuator failure....or worse.
My dealer says...."they all do it".....I say BS, Mine doesn't
even when it's 10 below zero! I also know of several others
that don't and several that do.
like metal-to-metal; that's exactly what it is. Metal-to-metal means
parts are not lubricated adequately and if they are making an unmistakable
metal-to-metal sound, they are wearing substantially
in ways never intended....period. "dry" parts at startup should
not last longer than 5, 10 seconds at most and can usually be
cured with the right oil. Noise as described for longer than
5-10 seconds are often an indication of other issues such
as bad oil pump, clogged filter, clogged or choked lines, bad lifter
stretched or bad timing chain, parking on a incline, or even valve deposits
from bad gas or engine lugging from driving in too high a gear too
often. Another possible issue that the VQ37 is prone too, is
sheared oil won't let the VVEL actuator motor build up
pressure fast enough which can lead to actuator failure....or worse.
My dealer says...."they all do it".....I say BS, Mine doesn't
even when it's 10 below zero! I also know of several others
that don't and several that do.
My car has 2k miles on it and since day one from the dealer its done it on cold start ups.
driving the car around, then stoping and then back in it a few hours later I dont get the same start up, more of a smooth start up.
I get the same noise after switching my oil to Motul 8100. switched to it at 1800 miles
so its normal
04-06-2010, 12:06 PM
#17
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I disagree. It's not normal. If anyone hears noise on startup that sounds
like metal-to-metal; that's exactly what it is. Metal-to-metal means
parts are not lubricated adequately and if they are making an unmistakable
metal-to-metal sound, they are wearing substantially
in ways never intended....period. "dry" parts at startup should
not last longer than 5, 10 seconds at most and can usually be
cured with the right oil. Noise as described for longer than
5-10 seconds are often an indication of other issues such
as bad oil pump, clogged filter, clogged or choked lines, bad lifter
stretched or bad timing chain, parking on a incline, or even valve deposits
from bad gas or engine lugging from driving in too high a gear too
often. Another possible issue that the VQ37 is prone too, is
sheared oil won't let the VVEL actuator motor build up
pressure fast enough which can lead to actuator failure....or worse.
My dealer says...."they all do it".....I say BS, Mine doesn't
even when it's 10 below zero! I also know of several others
that don't and several that do.
like metal-to-metal; that's exactly what it is. Metal-to-metal means
parts are not lubricated adequately and if they are making an unmistakable
metal-to-metal sound, they are wearing substantially
in ways never intended....period. "dry" parts at startup should
not last longer than 5, 10 seconds at most and can usually be
cured with the right oil. Noise as described for longer than
5-10 seconds are often an indication of other issues such
as bad oil pump, clogged filter, clogged or choked lines, bad lifter
stretched or bad timing chain, parking on a incline, or even valve deposits
from bad gas or engine lugging from driving in too high a gear too
often. Another possible issue that the VQ37 is prone too, is
sheared oil won't let the VVEL actuator motor build up
pressure fast enough which can lead to actuator failure....or worse.
My dealer says...."they all do it".....I say BS, Mine doesn't
even when it's 10 below zero! I also know of several others
that don't and several that do.
This "sound" that everyone is talking about is mechanically controlled somehow. After 30 seconds the sound stops immediately, not gradually. It doesn't slowly go away. It's like a switch flips. It's completely repeatable and consistent. Please tell me how that makes sense with what you're saying. If it was just poor lubrication, the sound would slowly decrease, and it wouldn't be so consistent with the timing. And I wouldn't even say it sounds like metal on metal necessarily, it just sounds different, and a little louder than normal idle.
I'm all for debating this, or trying to figure it out. But you throw out your opinions as fact, and I don't agree. Everyone's G does this, the dealer says it's normal, we all say it's normal. It's just you with your subjective opinion that says otherwise. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but one person continually saying something doesn't make it true. Let's see some proof. Like I said to you a few months ago, why don't you just take your valve covers off and either prove, or don't prove what you're claiming.
I'm wondering if you're even hearing the same thing as everyone else. I think there are two seperate issues here.....
1.) Normal cold-start up sound that we all experience,
2.) Valve ticking/clicking that requires ester.
I think 95% of people that talk about start up noise probably have #1, while a few people may have problems with #2.
Last edited by mindonmatter; 04-06-2010 at 12:21 PM.
04-06-2010, 11:54 PM
#18
Registered User
Mine - it starts very slightly rough - I can feel the car shake very mildly when started, but there's no "noise" or clattering. It's running fine by the time I'm out of the driveway. I used Pennziol Ultra last oil change.
04-07-2010, 11:27 AM
#20
Registered User
So is this information right? You said that Pennzoil Plat was ester based, it turns out that it isn't. Grain of salt.
This "sound" that everyone is talking about is mechanically controlled somehow. After 30 seconds the sound stops immediately, not gradually. It doesn't slowly go away. It's like a switch flips. It's completely repeatable and consistent. Please tell me how that makes sense with what you're saying. If it was just poor lubrication, the sound would slowly decrease, and it wouldn't be so consistent with the timing. And I wouldn't even say it sounds like metal on metal necessarily, it just sounds different, and a little louder than normal idle.
I'm all for debating this, or trying to figure it out. But you throw out your opinions as fact, and I don't agree. Everyone's G does this, the dealer says it's normal, we all say it's normal. It's just you with your subjective opinion that says otherwise. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but one person continually saying something doesn't make it true. Let's see some proof. Like I said to you a few months ago, why don't you just take your valve covers off and either prove, or don't prove what you're claiming.
I'm wondering if you're even hearing the same thing as everyone else. I think there are two seperate issues here.....
1.) Normal cold-start up sound that we all experience,
2.) Valve ticking/clicking that requires ester.
I think 95% of people that talk about start up noise probably have #1, while a few people may have problems with #2.
This "sound" that everyone is talking about is mechanically controlled somehow. After 30 seconds the sound stops immediately, not gradually. It doesn't slowly go away. It's like a switch flips. It's completely repeatable and consistent. Please tell me how that makes sense with what you're saying. If it was just poor lubrication, the sound would slowly decrease, and it wouldn't be so consistent with the timing. And I wouldn't even say it sounds like metal on metal necessarily, it just sounds different, and a little louder than normal idle.
I'm all for debating this, or trying to figure it out. But you throw out your opinions as fact, and I don't agree. Everyone's G does this, the dealer says it's normal, we all say it's normal. It's just you with your subjective opinion that says otherwise. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but one person continually saying something doesn't make it true. Let's see some proof. Like I said to you a few months ago, why don't you just take your valve covers off and either prove, or don't prove what you're claiming.
I'm wondering if you're even hearing the same thing as everyone else. I think there are two seperate issues here.....
1.) Normal cold-start up sound that we all experience,
2.) Valve ticking/clicking that requires ester.
I think 95% of people that talk about start up noise probably have #1, while a few people may have problems with #2.
MindlessMatter,
Reread exactly what I said about PU. I said it appears to have
up to 15 % ester....or Shell has figured out how to hydro-crack
a oil molecule chain that behaves like ester. What Shell says
is that they use NO ESTER BASE STOCK....that doesn't mean
they don't use it in the "add pak" the TBN and flashpoints
are the "giveaways". So wiseguy, go study the data sheets
and VOAs and tell me PU doesn't have a fair amount of
PAOs in it. I also said they aren't going to tell us what's
in it. You seem to overlook the details, even in the OP.
Next reread the original post. The poster says he is having
some serious shaking and rough running on startup. Normal
oil pressure build at startup would not be a cause of rough
running or engine shaking. That's why I explained the
differences and possible issues in play. I would 't expect
you to discern or understand the differences
I was explaining betweeen normal startup-tick and
the other possible issues the OP is describing.....if
you don't like my posts....don't read them. How hard
is that for you? Obviously, my posts are too detailed
for you anyway.
I do appreciate your desire to "get to the bottom" of this
issue. I also agree that ester is a very real solution
to the VQ37 startup-tick. Ester builds pressure in
the actuator motor faster than non-ester at startup
....It's just the nature of the molecule. Residual
ester remains on the VVEL parts better than non-ester
and also contributes to less start-up noise.
In regards to the VVEL "tick"....they don't all do it.
Mine doesn't and my neighbors Z doesn't...even
below zero. Both cars however have a distinct
sound from the starter which lasts about 3-5
seconds and is distincly louder than the engine
at startup......which brings me to my next point.
It sounds to me like some (not all) who are describing the
"tick" are not accurately describing the length of time it lasts.
10, 20, or even 30 seconds is a long time!!!! Start-up
oil pressure should build in less than 10 seconds and
every engine will make some start-up noises while
pressure builds and oil starts flowing. Apply the
old "one thousand one, one thousand two...etc"
and see if it REALLY LASTS MORE THAN 10 seconds...
or it "just seems like 20 or thirty seconds" If anyone
is having true metal-to-metal sound for more than
10 seconds, there is some serious wear going on
and it's not normal.
I stand by my earlier posts and descriptions. If
the noise is really lasting 20 or 30 seconds, OR
the engine is literally shaking and running rough
enough to shake your car you have other issues
going on and I tried to describe some of those
posssibities in my last post.
One last tip. It does take a second or two longer
for pressure to build in the VVEL actuator motor
of the VVEL system making it different than other
engines. Be careful not to "rev" or as Nissan
says...."race" your motor when not under load.
I will cause premature wear in the VVEL system
and if you rev it to 4K before the stepped
emission sytem warm-up (it idles the engine
down in several steps) , it will cause the
engine to go into the "cut fuel mode"
Last edited by JonfromCB; 04-07-2010 at 11:40 AM.
04-07-2010, 11:41 AM
#21
Guys - THIS IS NORMAL. At startup you have what is called lifter tick. Every car does it, depending on the distance the lifter travels and what the spring rate will determine exactly how much noise you hear at startup. Once it warms up it goes away because the A) the engine slows down B)the metal has expanded and "sits" in its proper place. Our cars are tuned to the limit from the factory. As far as the shaking, with a cold startup, whether it feels strong or you barely feel it at all, it will still be there. This is caused mostly by your engine mounts (which are pretty hard in the G from what I understand) and the moving parts of the engine aligning correctly with the seals (I.E. camshaft, flywheel, etc.) In your manual I believe it states to let the engine warm up to operating temp before you start driving. This is a safegaurd to let everything warm up and align correctly before you pounce on it.
This has NOTHING to do with engine oil except that the engine oil flowing helps warm up the parts.
This has NOTHING to do with engine oil except that the engine oil flowing helps warm up the parts.
04-07-2010, 01:43 PM
#22
Jon, all the manual carriage returns in your posts make them a PIA to read, and they all look like lyrics. Why not just let the software handle where the end of the line is so your posts don't appear to go on for so long?
Thanks.
Thanks.
04-08-2010, 11:31 AM
#23
Registered User
using the "10 word" format because the average reader
can read a column of 10 words much faster than a longer
column....its an "eye" thing.
And to TTZ2G....what's wrong with my cars? None of
them make those sounds you say are normal. Not to
trying to give you a hard time here. I've had 23 new
cars in my life, a dozen used cars, not to mention
the motorcycles I've built and raced. Not bragging,
just illustrating that I've experienced the difference
between normal startup sounds, and startup sounds
from engines with different types of valve components,
starter sounds, vacuum actuated step-down systems,
injector noises and other wear and lubrication issues.
I find it interesting in your post and MindlessMatters' that
you guys address the "shaking" or "rough running"
as just another normal issue associated with
the ticking. Come on! and for more than 10 seconds
and up to 30?... that is just plain absurd. and then you
reassert that its all normal? Are you brand new?
.....What about the shaking? If you think that is normal,
I invite you to see and hear my car start...and yes I have
heard and seen several examples of the "VVEL
tick" in other Gs and Zs exactly like many talk
about on this forum. Try some better oil at shorter
intervals and see what happens..you've got nothing
to loose by trying it do you?
We already know that some dealerships are still
delivering cars without doing the TSBs. We also
know that some new cars have had the factory
oil fill in them for many months before they are
delivered and then run for many more months
before the first change with not-so-great
bulk oils. We also know from UOAs that
this engine heat shears many oils that hold
up alot bettter in other engines...M1 is the
best example i have seen of a "good oil"
producing high wear metals over and over
again in UOAs from this engine. Now we're seeing
that Nissan Ester is starting to shear in this engine
at less than 4K. Will the cars start, run and
last on "other stuff"....yes probably well enough
that they will last past the warranty period
and people will just bitch about it and say it's
normal in this engine.
But! people who love their V37s will do
more frequent changes with better oils
and not have this issue and associated
issues "down the road". The VQ37
certainly isn't the first motor in recent
history to have oil related issues due
to it's unique design.
Last edited by JonfromCB; 04-08-2010 at 12:11 PM.
04-08-2010, 11:49 AM
#24
^re-read my post. I addressed the shaking as well. Again, very normal for a cold startup. American cars won't do this because the engine mounts are very soft. Put an American car and a G next to each other wit hthe hood open. You will see the engine in the American car "turn" much more then the G. I just did this last night with a Focus SVT. There was a huge difference. I.E. G has harder engine mounts.
If what you are saying is true in your previous posts, you would be seeing oil consumption, which after 2 years on the market I don't think anyone is seeing.
If what you are saying is true in your previous posts, you would be seeing oil consumption, which after 2 years on the market I don't think anyone is seeing.
Last edited by TTZ2G; 04-08-2010 at 12:01 PM.
04-08-2010, 06:14 PM
#25
Seriously man, when I come to a post of yours that goes on for pages because of the unnecessary carriage returns, I just skip reading it altogether.
06-24-2010, 12:04 AM
#26
Well, I can only speak for myself... I noticed yesterday and today... no more of that loud chatter on cold starts after I had my exhaust installed.
So I have no idea what it could be. The noise seems to be coming from under the hood, and not from underneath the car or anything... I thought maybe it could be the stock y-pipe... the heat shielding is kind of flimsy IMO... *shrugs*
I'll pay more attention on cold starts as the days go by and update.
So I have no idea what it could be. The noise seems to be coming from under the hood, and not from underneath the car or anything... I thought maybe it could be the stock y-pipe... the heat shielding is kind of flimsy IMO... *shrugs*
I'll pay more attention on cold starts as the days go by and update.
06-24-2010, 09:23 AM
#27
The manual states to let the car idle for 30 seconds before driving it. I assume that is for the oil to fully circulate and get up to pressure.
I have 4,000 miles on my 2010 and never have experienced a rough idle when starting the car.
I quess it doesn't sound the greatest when first started, because my wife said there was something wrong with the sound of the engine when I started it with her standing outside the car.
I had read that complaint on this forum so I told her it was normal. I can't hear anything that sounds abnormal while I am in the car when I start it up.
I have 4,000 miles on my 2010 and never have experienced a rough idle when starting the car.
I quess it doesn't sound the greatest when first started, because my wife said there was something wrong with the sound of the engine when I started it with her standing outside the car.
I had read that complaint on this forum so I told her it was normal. I can't hear anything that sounds abnormal while I am in the car when I start it up.
06-24-2010, 10:12 AM
#28
Funny, not sure how anyone can tell you what's normal or not when you're just reading about it. ??? Our engine is a little more "gruff" than others out there in our class for sure. If it sounds like it coming apart you may want to have it checked out. I love the way it's starts up and is idling high for about 20-30 seconds then calms down. Sounds mean and like she can't wait to get going and on with the day. 
I run royal purple in mine and it does run a little smoother but never have I experienced any "shaking" and I wouldn't say that "shaking" would be normal. Maybe something new to new owners but you yourself have to make the call of what is "normal" and what feels like something is wrong. Nobody can really tell you here online. Get someone else that owns a G and have them sit it in with you upon start up so you can get a second opinion.
I run royal purple in mine and it does run a little smoother but never have I experienced any "shaking" and I wouldn't say that "shaking" would be normal. Maybe something new to new owners but you yourself have to make the call of what is "normal" and what feels like something is wrong. Nobody can really tell you here online. Get someone else that owns a G and have them sit it in with you upon start up so you can get a second opinion.
06-24-2010, 02:13 PM
#30
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I've got the rough starts as well. 1,200 miles so far, but it's been like that since I took delivery. I'm thinking it is normal since it appears that a whole lot of folks have the same issue.
In comparison, my 07 did not do it. It purred when started no matter what temperature. It's a slightly different engine, but is it that different?
In comparison, my 07 did not do it. It purred when started no matter what temperature. It's a slightly different engine, but is it that different?