Non-sport brakes suggestions
05-11-2011, 02:44 PM
#17
Akebono ProACT ceramic are good brakes! Great stopping preformance, quiet, low dust. Previously had Hawk HPS and they screeched like a school bus and had that nasty soft pedel feel. They where only used for 5k and in the trash they went. Switching to Akebono was like night and day.
I am going to order the rear set now.
05-12-2011, 07:00 AM
#18
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Though there are exceptions to every rule I generally call BS to this statement
Though friction may be there you are not in the temp range and you are chewing through rotors and pads. Brakes work by depositing a layer of brake pad material on the rotor and if bedded properly you end end with a blueish hue to the rotor face (AKA pad transfer layer). Silver shiny mirror like rotors have little to no transfer layer and have poor brake performance. The layer and the pad interact to provide the performance characterisitics of the pad. If you are not in the temp range (usually racing pads are 600+ degree) then you severly compromise the performance and you never develop the transfer layer and you are simply stopping the car by grinding the pad and rotor together like a grinding wheel. I have seen cars get literally 50 miles out of a set of rotors because they used a racing pad in a what was basically a street temperature range (racing school with newbie teenage girl at the wheel).
This is also why they recommend turning a rotor before you drive on new pads. You want a fresh rotor face to apply a new transfer layer. You cannot mix a new pad with an old transfer layer or transfer layer from another type of pad and expect good performance or long life.
Plus, race pads usually squeal like hell and why would you want that on a street car?
The most agressive you should ever get for a street car is an autocross pad but more ideally a high performance street pad is best. Using a true racing pad is a waste of money and risk to other people's life and limb (not to mention your own).
Pads
- "racing pads" supposedly only operate at high temp. Proven wrong by a simple friction graph from virtually all pad manufacturers. Project Mu 999 pads are a sintered metal full race compound. At room temperature, which is far under the normal operating temperature of a "race pad", it still has a friction coefficient that is over 50% higher than a street pad. Does it stop the car as well as if it had been in its normal operating range? No. Does it stop the car better than a street pad? Hell yes. Same goes for virtually every "racing pad" available. The exceptions to this are some endurance compounds, which are specifically made to last for extended use under extreme conditions.
- "racing pads" supposedly only operate at high temp. Proven wrong by a simple friction graph from virtually all pad manufacturers. Project Mu 999 pads are a sintered metal full race compound. At room temperature, which is far under the normal operating temperature of a "race pad", it still has a friction coefficient that is over 50% higher than a street pad. Does it stop the car as well as if it had been in its normal operating range? No. Does it stop the car better than a street pad? Hell yes. Same goes for virtually every "racing pad" available. The exceptions to this are some endurance compounds, which are specifically made to last for extended use under extreme conditions.
This is also why they recommend turning a rotor before you drive on new pads. You want a fresh rotor face to apply a new transfer layer. You cannot mix a new pad with an old transfer layer or transfer layer from another type of pad and expect good performance or long life.
Plus, race pads usually squeal like hell and why would you want that on a street car?
The most agressive you should ever get for a street car is an autocross pad but more ideally a high performance street pad is best. Using a true racing pad is a waste of money and risk to other people's life and limb (not to mention your own).
05-12-2011, 09:14 AM
#19
Akebono ProACT ceramic are good brakes! Great stopping preformance, quiet, low dust. Previously had Hawk HPS and they screeched like a school bus and had that nasty soft pedel feel. They where only used for 5k and in the trash they went. Switching to Akebono was like night and day.
Link to G37 non-sport sedan brake products:
Brakes for 2009 Infiniti G37 Sedan Journey Base Model
And BTW, changing rotors and pads on a G37 sedan is very easy if you have access to a lift, or jack stands. Don't forget to scrape off the rust from the hubs, add a silicone grease layer, push the pistons and bleed the lines, replace fluid, and index those new rotors with a dial runout indicator, which you can get from Harbor freight for super cheap - 14.99.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-...source=linking
Sounds like a lot, but it is not, and you just saved yourself 300-400 in labor at least. Hang the calipers from the top suspension knuckle with a little bungee cord when before and after putting them together. It's only two bolts to get them off the mounts.
Last edited by ozzypriest; 05-12-2011 at 09:21 AM.
05-12-2011, 10:02 AM
#20
You bought the wrong Hawks. Hawk Performance Ceramics are not noisy, and have better stopping power than the Akebonos. HPS are more akin to racing pads, which will be screechy. The Akebonos are a good choice, and are on sale at TR for 68.00. OEM copies are on sale for 22.00 at TR. The Hawks I mentioned are more like 88.00. $$.
Link to G37 non-sport sedan brake products:
Brakes for 2009 Infiniti G37 Sedan Journey Base Model
And BTW, changing rotors and pads on a G37 sedan is very easy if you have access to a lift, or jack stands. Don't forget to scrape off the rust from the hubs, add a silicone grease layer, push the pistons and bleed the lines, replace fluid, and index those new rotors with a dial runout indicator, which you can get from Harbor freight for super cheap - 14.99.
1" Travel Machinist's Dial Indicator
Sounds like a lot, but it is not, and you just saved yourself 300-400 in labor at least. Hang the calipers from the top suspension knuckle with a little bungee cord when before and after putting them together. It's only two bolts to get them off the mounts.
Link to G37 non-sport sedan brake products:
Brakes for 2009 Infiniti G37 Sedan Journey Base Model
And BTW, changing rotors and pads on a G37 sedan is very easy if you have access to a lift, or jack stands. Don't forget to scrape off the rust from the hubs, add a silicone grease layer, push the pistons and bleed the lines, replace fluid, and index those new rotors with a dial runout indicator, which you can get from Harbor freight for super cheap - 14.99.
1" Travel Machinist's Dial Indicator
Sounds like a lot, but it is not, and you just saved yourself 300-400 in labor at least. Hang the calipers from the top suspension knuckle with a little bungee cord when before and after putting them together. It's only two bolts to get them off the mounts.
I ordered the Akebonos for the rear yesterday. I am not to worried about the labor charge since I can get the job done at my friend's shop for like $50 per axle.
He said my front pads still had a lot of life left and the front rotors could probably be re-surfaced for one more time (which would last for another 10K miles) before they'd need replacements. So I'll replace the front rotors and pads in about 6 months or so. I looked at the link on tirerack and saw "Centric Premium Rotor" and "Power Slot Power Alloy Rotor". Is the latter much better than the former?
05-12-2011, 10:20 AM
#21
You bought the wrong Hawks. Hawk Performance Ceramics are not noisy, and have better stopping power than the Akebonos. HPS are more akin to racing pads, which will be screechy. The Akebonos are a good choice, and are on sale at TR for 68.00. OEM copies are on sale for 22.00 at TR. The Hawks I mentioned are more like 88.00. $$.
Link to G37 non-sport sedan brake products:
Brakes for 2009 Infiniti G37 Sedan Journey Base Model
And BTW, changing rotors and pads on a G37 sedan is very easy if you have access to a lift, or jack stands. Don't forget to scrape off the rust from the hubs, add a silicone grease layer, push the pistons and bleed the lines, replace fluid, and index those new rotors with a dial runout indicator, which you can get from Harbor freight for super cheap - 14.99.
1" Travel Machinist's Dial Indicator
Sounds like a lot, but it is not, and you just saved yourself 300-400 in labor at least. Hang the calipers from the top suspension knuckle with a little bungee cord when before and after putting them together. It's only two bolts to get them off the mounts.
Link to G37 non-sport sedan brake products:
Brakes for 2009 Infiniti G37 Sedan Journey Base Model
And BTW, changing rotors and pads on a G37 sedan is very easy if you have access to a lift, or jack stands. Don't forget to scrape off the rust from the hubs, add a silicone grease layer, push the pistons and bleed the lines, replace fluid, and index those new rotors with a dial runout indicator, which you can get from Harbor freight for super cheap - 14.99.
1" Travel Machinist's Dial Indicator
Sounds like a lot, but it is not, and you just saved yourself 300-400 in labor at least. Hang the calipers from the top suspension knuckle with a little bungee cord when before and after putting them together. It's only two bolts to get them off the mounts.
05-12-2011, 12:45 PM
#24
Though there are exceptions to every rule I generally call BS to this statement
Though friction may be there you are not in the temp range and you are chewing through rotors and pads. Brakes work by depositing a layer of brake pad material on the rotor and if bedded properly you end end with a blueish hue to the rotor face (AKA pad transfer layer). Silver shiny mirror like rotors have little to no transfer layer and have poor brake performance. The layer and the pad interact to provide the performance characterisitics of the pad. If you are not in the temp range (usually racing pads are 600+ degree) then you severly compromise the performance and you never develop the transfer layer and you are simply stopping the car by grinding the pad and rotor together like a grinding wheel. I have seen cars get literally 50 miles out of a set of rotors because they used a racing pad in a what was basically a street temperature range (racing school with newbie teenage girl at the wheel).
This is also why they recommend turning a rotor before you drive on new pads. You want a fresh rotor face to apply a new transfer layer. You cannot mix a new pad with an old transfer layer or transfer layer from another type of pad and expect good performance or long life.
Plus, race pads usually squeal like hell and why would you want that on a street car?
The most agressive you should ever get for a street car is an autocross pad but more ideally a high performance street pad is best. Using a true racing pad is a waste of money and risk to other people's life and limb (not to mention your own).
Though friction may be there you are not in the temp range and you are chewing through rotors and pads. Brakes work by depositing a layer of brake pad material on the rotor and if bedded properly you end end with a blueish hue to the rotor face (AKA pad transfer layer). Silver shiny mirror like rotors have little to no transfer layer and have poor brake performance. The layer and the pad interact to provide the performance characterisitics of the pad. If you are not in the temp range (usually racing pads are 600+ degree) then you severly compromise the performance and you never develop the transfer layer and you are simply stopping the car by grinding the pad and rotor together like a grinding wheel. I have seen cars get literally 50 miles out of a set of rotors because they used a racing pad in a what was basically a street temperature range (racing school with newbie teenage girl at the wheel).
This is also why they recommend turning a rotor before you drive on new pads. You want a fresh rotor face to apply a new transfer layer. You cannot mix a new pad with an old transfer layer or transfer layer from another type of pad and expect good performance or long life.
Plus, race pads usually squeal like hell and why would you want that on a street car?
The most agressive you should ever get for a street car is an autocross pad but more ideally a high performance street pad is best. Using a true racing pad is a waste of money and risk to other people's life and limb (not to mention your own).
Here's the thing. Properly bedded race pads don't squeal like a raging pig. Quite a few local members can testify to the fact that my brakes do make noise, but its not a screech or squeal. It's more of a 'dragging a metal brush on a piece of sheet metal' sound, and only audible with the windows open coming to a full stop. I'm on Carbotech XP12 fronts and XP10 rears. The thing is, there's no way in hell these can ever be bedded safely on the street unless you live in BFE.
The blue you see is not the transfer layer. Rather, its the surface of the rotor being scorched (wtf are you doing?).
Endurance pads have a narrow operating temp because they're made for well, endurance. The pads I use, and most commonly available "race pads" retain a mu than a street pad, even at street temps. Want proof? Drive my car.
05-12-2011, 02:12 PM
#25
I'm fully aware of how brake pads work.
Here's the thing. Properly bedded race pads don't squeal like a raging pig. Quite a few local members can testify to the fact that my brakes do make noise, but its not a screech or squeal. It's more of a 'dragging a metal brush on a piece of sheet metal' sound, and only audible with the windows open coming to a full stop. I'm on Carbotech XP12 fronts and XP10 rears. The thing is, there's no way in hell these can ever be bedded safely on the street unless you live in BFE.
The blue you see is not the transfer layer. Rather, its the surface of the rotor being scorched (wtf are you doing?).
Endurance pads have a narrow operating temp because they're made for well, endurance. The pads I use, and most commonly available "race pads" retain a mu than a street pad, even at street temps. Want proof? Drive my car.
Here's the thing. Properly bedded race pads don't squeal like a raging pig. Quite a few local members can testify to the fact that my brakes do make noise, but its not a screech or squeal. It's more of a 'dragging a metal brush on a piece of sheet metal' sound, and only audible with the windows open coming to a full stop. I'm on Carbotech XP12 fronts and XP10 rears. The thing is, there's no way in hell these can ever be bedded safely on the street unless you live in BFE.
The blue you see is not the transfer layer. Rather, its the surface of the rotor being scorched (wtf are you doing?).
Endurance pads have a narrow operating temp because they're made for well, endurance. The pads I use, and most commonly available "race pads" retain a mu than a street pad, even at street temps. Want proof? Drive my car.
05-12-2011, 02:54 PM
#26
I do own a set of pads that are a compatible formulation with the race pads, but only use them when I have an extended period in which I don't track.
05-12-2011, 05:09 PM
#28
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The blue you see is not the transfer layer. Rather, its the surface of the rotor being scorched (wtf are you doing?).
It's more of a 'dragging a metal brush on a piece of sheet metal' sound, and only audible with the windows open coming to a full stop.
How is your brake dust?
05-12-2011, 05:17 PM
#29
Not going to fight with you but this is BS. Scorched rotors have pad deposits (sometimes confused with rotor warping) and inconsistent surface finish accross the rotor face.
This I believe is your overly aggressive race pad which is operating outside of it's temp ran and is tearing away at your rotor. Sort of a cheese grater affect if you will.
How is your brake dust?
This I believe is your overly aggressive race pad which is operating outside of it's temp ran and is tearing away at your rotor. Sort of a cheese grater affect if you will.
How is your brake dust?
See how slowing down 30 mph results in a 300 degree change in rotor temp? The rotor is a heat sink for the pad itself, so how much do you think the pad itself is heating up dissipating 30 mph? It's safe to say its in excess of 300 degrees. The temps shown are rotor surface temps. The sharp drop after each peak is due to the heat being conducted into the rotor from the surface. The spikes are from braking, where the pads are converting kinetic energy into noise and heat.
300 degrees over ambient would easily put me into the operating range, and as the temp of the rotor/pad drops, it cools slower (asymptotic).
Thus, we can conclude that from ambient, scrubbing 20 mph would already put me into operating temperature range.
Notes: vehicle in question is a s2k, which is significantly lighter than a G37. Given the level of kinetic energy that must be dissipated from a G37, brake pad temps would jump even MORE with the same speed differential, even with greater pad and rotor mass.
Do you have any actual experience with race pads? This is what I do on the weekends. This particular event was at Autoclub Speedway. Each lap involves the following braking over just under a 2 minute period:
135->40, 85 -> 40, 110->35, 110 -> 40. If the above example showed roughly a 100F gain per 10mph scrubbed, you can imagine the heat involved.
Last edited by Mike; 05-12-2011 at 05:25 PM.