BigSpoon

So I started this question/issue over on my first noob post thread New G37x Owner & Questions! and decided this is an issue that deserves its own thread. I need some input on this strange, out of nowhere electrical / sensor issue...

Quick synopsis: have only had the car for a few weeks. 2010 G37x sedan, 120k miles. I took it to the dealer two days ago to have them install a new steering wheel clock spring. Don't even get me started lol (I installed a new carbon fiber steering wheel and in the process messed up the clockspring wire/cable deal. I got frustrated trying to get the steering wheel straight too. I gave up and had the "pros" do it. They called me this AM to let me know all was good, car was done and ready for pickup. I'm almost out the door when they call me back and say, "OOPS, we have a bigger problem on our hand's sir..."

They claim that after they ran the car through their little dealership car wash, it completely died on them. Mind you, I didn't ask for a car wash. I guess that's just customary for an Infiniti dealer. Idk. But they started diagnosing it and are telling me that due to the fact that some of the engine bay bolts were replaced/swapped out with these engine bay "dress up" bolts of sorts (see pic below), that caused all sorts of electrical issues i.e. camshaft position sensor fried, ignition coil packs fried, possible ECM fried, possible entire engine wiring harness might need to be replaced etc. Currently sitting at the stealership looking at a $2500 bill thus far... and that's NOT including if they need to replace the "$1700 ECM" and "they don't even make that engine bay wiring harness anymore so we'd have to find something used if we needed to replace it too".

Now, I am not a mechanic. However, I have been working on my own project cars on and off for 15+yrs now. I've run into all kinds of mystery issues on various cars before. Never heard of this kind of thing happening before though. Some awesome fellow members here on my other thread started questioning the dealer's diagnosis, which made me want to question it more as well. The more I hear from other experienced, knowledgeable guys saying it's lame makes me really question things. I even called another Infiniti dealer in town to see what they thought (didn't tell him another Infiniti dealer was the one telling me this) about the issues and that service advisor said something to the effect of, "Yeah something doesn't sound right with that story" and "I mean, a bolt is a bolt, what's the problem?" When I pressed the stealership back on how I'm questioning how all of this was truly caused by engine dress up bolts.... their response was something like, "Well yeah you see those bolts have some kind of like coating or plastic on them and it's not conducting electricity because the factory OEM bolt is supposed to complete the circuit, therefore, those bolts are the culprit...."

I thought that was what fuses were for, to prevent all kinds of electrical system shortages or "being fried". I mean, how did my ignition coil packs, CPS, ECM, etc all just get destroyed because I put a few stupid cute-looking dress-up bolts in place of the factory bolts on the chassis/engine ground?

I am also not an electrician, but I used to be a commercial electrician apprentice way back when I was in college. I did get some basic electrical concepts training and experience out of that. I just don't understand how the bolts "complete the circuit" vs simply serving to ground the little ring terminals to the chassis or engine or other components. I mean, even if these dress up bolts have some kind of paint or coating on them (?), as long as the wires with the ring terminals are secured (not loose) to where they're supposed to be secured, you shouldn't have all these faults.

And how the hell did it drive just fine to get TO the dealer and only started having all these issues after they ran it through their car wash? Did water exacerbate the issues with the bolts?

I just don't know who to believe and I certainly don't have $$$$ just laying around for random electrical component repairs and sensors replacements etc IF it's not necessary. I'm wary of the dealer. Especially since another Infiniti dealer told me he thought something was off about that diagnosis.

BigSpoon

Oh and here's a modified version of that same photo but with circled areas the dealership specifically states are the reason(s) for all this failure...

I'm having a hard time understanding how quickly and badly all these things can be caused by simply using fancier/decorative bolt-on "harmless" areas. Like, the cam position sensor for example - they say that 1 bolt that the sensor is held on by to the engine has to be the factory OEM bolt or else it will "short out" and "get fried".

SonicVQ

On the passenger side, pull up the floor mat and see if it is wet.
It is VERY common for the sunroof drains to leak at the inside firewall and drip on the BCM (body control module)
When this happens, very weird electrical things can happen.

Sometimes, if you disconnect the battery, wipe up all the moisture and let it dry out (with a fan) this can get the car back running.

As for the dress up kit, all the bolts except for the one behind the driver's air box (ground wire) have no electrical function, just mechanical.
PLUS I assume the car was running just fine after the dress up kit was installed, so I suspect the dealer is at a loss to explain it.

EDIT since pic has been updated:
I did miss the ground on the passenger side.

The other two (fuel damper fastener and cam position sensor) are NOT used for an electrical purpose.
The cam position sensor is a "Hall effect" type sensor and has 3 wires. power, ground and signal. The bolt has no electrical purpose, it just holds it in place.

iCrap

iTrader: (8)

Yeah I would suspect that your BCM has got water in it. The bolts only in same places would be used as a ground. They won't cause any issues.

BigSpoon

That's what I thought. I think the stealership is really earning that moniker right now. I had no opportunity to check for the water issues you mention since it all happened when under the dealer's care, and the vehicle is still there. I got a rental car and filed an insurance claim to see if they can assist.

You are 100% correct, the vehicle was running JUST FINE after those dress up bolts were installed. In fact, I pulled my records just to see. I checked the day I installed them and took a picture of the installation that you see in this thread. Dated Sat, Oct 30th, 2021. I then checked my Google maps timeline history and was able to see that I'd put about 30 miles on the car post new dress up bolt install. I'm supposed to believe that these insane electrical issues magically showed up only when at the dealer after they ran it through a car wash?

Yeah, dealer was quoting me today stuff like, "Well yeah I mean if we have to get a new ECM/BCM/ECU/PCM that'll be another $1700 easily". UGHHHHH I hate dealerships!


Tomorrow my game plan is to reach out to someone in service management at the dealership. Then I plan to possibly file a complaint with Infiniti USA corporate. I don't know what to do. I feel like they think I'm stupid and can just make up stuff and make me pay for it.

Said Amir

I did some "dress-up" bolts on the grounds in my engine bay since they had some corrosion on it. Just some regular black 10mm bolts, and never had an issue with it. A bolt is a bolt. You are mainly securing it onto the body or engine which will still conduct ground power. My other guess would be since they had to take out the positive and negative terminals in order to change the steering wheel they might have attached the negative and positive in the wrong terminals and caused a shortage. Or like others mentioned BCM which is a very common issue. If I were you I would go there tomorrow or today and check the passenger floorboard to ensure that it is dry. If it is wet, then it is on Infiniti for washing a car without permission.

BigSpoon

Yeah, I am almost certain now the issue is on Infiniti for washing the car. They're going to say (and have said already) that it's a customer service thing to wash every car. That's great, that's fine, but I didn't ask for that. The assistant service manager said, "Well you didn't specify NOT to wash the car either". Sigh.

The more I've thought about it, slept on it, talked to people smarter than the average bear, the more this story isn't adding up. I talked to Z1 Motorsports and asked if they've ever heard someone say of their aftermarket engine dress-up bolt kits caused an electrical system failure. They sort of laughed and said, "No, no way, that's a new one!".

Point is, everyone is asking questions. I mean, it seems no one believes the bolts to be the culprit except the dealer themselves. I hate to accuse people of being untruthful, but it really is starting to feel as though this dealer is just trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility. I feel it's much more likely that water got into the car somehow and caused these problems. Since the issues ONLY happened after they washed the car. Again, I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder if they just don't want to own up to having to pay thousands of dollars to repair something and are just trying to pass this off as all my fault (as a result of these bolts).

I'm looking at so many pictures of Nissans/Infinitis Zs and Gs (and Qs) with any number of aftermarket engine bay bolts TO INCLUDE GROUND TERMINALS. If the bolts were the issue, you'd see a lot more people complaining about broken cars after install and/or the products themselves being taken off the shelves. I highly doubt these engine bolt kits are the problem.

Rochester

iTrader: (8)

Those are good looking collars, in red anodized aluminum with countersunk stainless steel bolts.

Granted, you really went to town replacing bolts, and in some places where I bet you didn't care about torque specs...

But for those grounding wires, I mean I'm no electrician, but you replaced OEM bolts with stainless steel. OK, so what? How in the world is that a problem?

You're in a tight spot with this situation. A 12 year old car with 120k miles on it, sitting at the dealership being told you need to spend thousands to get it back. I don't envy you. And unfortunately you're going to get little help here on the forum except to commiserate.

BigSpoon

Yeah, I more or less get that. I guess I was just looking for a sounding board of sorts, and/or to just run this by some other people to see if I'm going crazy or not. Like, whether or not the dealership is pulling my leg or not. Sounds like I'm in a tough spot.

FWIW made a YouTube video, tested the Ohms/resistance of factory OEM bolts in the engine bay vs some random bolts and vs the aftermarket dress-up bolt. I'm no electrician either, but I am having a hard time believing these bolts are the culprit without a doubt. At least based on my little bolt resistance test:


That pic of the red bolts/collars isn't from my car. Just a random shot I think from a bolt kit product page from Z1 Motorsport's website. Just wanted to show the dealership I'm not the only one in the world who's replaced these kinds of bolts and had no trouble with them whatsoever.

While I didn't check torque specs, granted, I made sure the tiny gauge wire ring terminal grounding bolts were secure to the chassis as I did with all the other bolts. I didn't want to over-tighten them, but I certainly made sure none of them were loose. And to think I drove 30 miles over a period of 2-3 days without any issue until the car went through the car wash at the dealer....

Sigh

BULL

I get that you're trying to explore every situation possible but the issue is a wet BCM or kick panel fusebox. You would have seen any changes upon installation. The fact that they pointed at the VTC sensor and said what they said is a huge flag.
Granted water damage is common in these cars, it's a catch 22 for dealers since the problem happened in their hands they need to place the blame on something.
So let's start with aftermarket modifications. "It has to be those shiny bolts, etc"
Remember that the dealer has to pay the tech for diag.

The dealer is asking how they can solve this situation for free and as you can see the options are limited. Your options are limited, the car is in their hands and while it's in their hands they'll say whatever they want. The minute you get the car out anything can be done or said, so trying to go after the dealer after wont work.

There is no way that these bolts damaged the electrical system, not even if they got wet but you can ask the adviser if replacing the said bolts would fix the issue. Save those videos so you can show the adviser and ask to see if you can go inside of the car and inspect for water damage.

BigSpoon

I agree it's more plausible to be the wet BCM or fuse panel. The dealer is swearing up and down they found zero water whatsoever anywhere... When you say VTC do you mean the CPS (camshaft position sensor)?

It's definitely not the shiny bolts, especially after I checked Ohms/resistance and made a video about it.

Are you saying I have no leverage if I take it out of the shop, or no leverage if I leave it until we find a resolution?

I agree, the bolts being the culprit is a joke and lame. I did ask the service advisor on day 1 that this happened if swapping out bolts helped. He said, "No the damage is already done to all of these electrical components". Sigh. And since this happened 4 days ago, even if I go to the dealer right now, chances are any water that may have been there is dried up already, no?

BULL

I meant the CPS. Like Frank motorvate stated. This sensor has it's own power, ground and signal so the bolt is to keep the sensor in place.

Unfortunately, if you take the car out of the shop they can no longer prove anything. This is just like an improper medical diagnosis, try to keep the line of communication with the dealership, always ask what other possibilities it could be. Don't believe the initial diagnosis without doing your own research and maintain the focus that the issues were not present prior to and even after the fix or else the tech would have noticed. Just so happened to be upon heavy water force. The auto dry feature of most car washes is pushing winds of 200+ miles at you to get the water out and in a picky car this force can lift your windshield cowls and allow water in.

Water could have dried up but this damage also leaves calcification deposits on the electrical components, calcium is a poor conductor of electricity but it conducts it which is why water damage can be tricky it's not just liquid water being the bridge but the dry residue conducts as well. You can see if by leaving it to dry a bit it will work but remember that your car is now the ugly duckling for them and they want nothing to do with it anymore since it doesnt make them any money at the moment.

Sucks that you are in this predicament, keeping a good intelligent attitude towards anything they tell you is the best course always checking your notes and comparing them with new findings. Dealers have a habit of coming up with 2nd-3rd diagnosis's that dont tie into the original complaints just to save face hoping the client doesn't put 2 and 2 together.

BigSpoon

Yeah, I know that one bolt for the CPS simply holds it in place. I can't believe they were trying to tell me it had some special electrical function/purpose.

I certainly don't believe their diagnosis. I think it's probably more likely than not that something happened while the vehicle was in the dealer's care & custody, period. It's tough for either party to definitively prove one way or the other, but the fact of the matter is that the vehicle ran and drove just fine with those aftermarket bolts when I had the car. Then it just suddenly has these issues after they take it through their car wash. I'm willing to bet a Judge would conclude it's 51% more likely that as they were the last to touch the vehicle and take it through the car wash that they have some culpability here and are trying to absolve themselves of any fault. It's easier to deflect and point blame at the shiny aftermarket bolts.

What kills me is that I did that video testing the Ohm's resistance of the bolts and showed no noticeable difference or inability of the bolts themselves to conduct electricity or provide a stable ground. And plus, the two ground bolts they claim to be the issue are so minuscule in the grand scheme of things. What I mean is that those two wires are such tiny gauge wires, we're talking about as thing as maybe some earrings. To think that those are the issue is beyond me.

I ran all those scenarios you outlined with regard to the car wash high force fans for drying etc to the dealer and of course, they are just up and down adamant that there's no possible way this could be the culprit. My own insurance company now is questioning ME as if I am somehow filing some kind of fraudulent claim or something. It's really frustrating! Cuz they're not buying this scenario the dealer is laying out either. No one but the actual dealer is buying this crap.

Infiniti Consumer Affairs also was no help at all. The lady told me today, "Since the vehicle is out of warranty and has high mileage, there's nothing we can do. And we talked to the retailer (dealer) and they explained the aftermarket bolts to be the culprit and we believe them so there's nothing we can do". Essentially washing their hands of me as well.

My only recourse now is either to have a different, independent shop look at it. I'd have to pay for the tow, of course. Or, involve the courts. I don't want it to get to this point, but I'm out of options. I feel so crappy. My hope is that the dealer would rather just "make this right" and settle out of court vs risk potentially losing in court. I mean, in the grand scheme of things it'd be nice if they even wanted to offer some discount on the repairs or some assistance for the cost.

They say I need all new ignition coil packs and MIGHT need a new BCM. They said they can't diagnosis if I need a new BCM until AFTER the coil packs are installed so they can start the car. They say it does turn over right now but "because the coil packs are bad, the engine would be misfiring and we don't want to risk any further damage". It still baffles me they can't diagnosis the BCM without all new coil packs. And they don't know if the CPS sensor(s) would need to be replaced either until after the coil packs so they can run the car and see what codes or issues come up. Then they say it might need a new engine wiring harness too! But of course, we have to do the coil packs first, according to them. And of course, how much are the PARTS alone for a set of 6 coil packs? Y You guessed it, just under $1000! Hell, I can get a set of Z1's "upgraded" coil packs (6) for under $400!

juster

If you sue them you will have to take it somewhere else to find out what they did anyway, right? In order to get it fixed you will have to take it somewhere else to find out what they did as well. Id say just bite the bullet and go get your car to someone you can trust to tell you what they really did to it. Def hand it to your lawyer after you do though. Maybe the things they are telling you are wrong are complete bs anyway. Id also say its impossible to diagnose anything from any information you get from them as well. I hope you have better luck with it after you get it out of there.

BigSpoon

I'm more than half a mind in the same direction of thought: next to impossible to truly diagnose or believe anything they say.

My only thing is, let's say it was WATER that caused this and not the shiny aftermarket bolt holding a tiny gauge wire to the body/chassis. Well, that water has dried up now. And even if there were leftover calcium-type deposits as was suggested, who's to say the dealership didn't clean those up or do something to cover their tracks. I mean really, wer're talking about two little wires ring terminal grounds that are thinner than the 12 AWG in this pic!




I often wonder what they'd have done if the aftermarket-colored bolts weren't there at all. Surely they wouldn't be able to blame the factory OEM bolts! I bet that'd be a real head-scratcher. Maybe they would have "done the right thing" and just paid to fix the issue they inadvertently caused by going through the car wash especially when my car is missing the underbody plastic splash shield and the front passenger fender liner. I mean, you can literally see daylight through the fender/engine bay. It's so easy to believe high-pressure water/air made an intrusion somewhere. But since the bolts happened to be there, they can point and sputter and deflect and blame and write whatever they want in their "technician notes" section to justify whatever they want. There's literally no accountability and virtually no way for me or any average consumer client to verify or check what they're saying to be real and true. This all happens behind closed doors and behind your back and you're just never supposed to question a prestigious Infiniti dealership - oh no!


No under-engine/body plastic splash shield:



No passenger wheel-well fender liner:


and: