Mike

iTrader: (1)

The trans physically locks you out of neutral? That is NEVER the case unless the trans is faulty. Going from D to N in any car doesn't require you to press the shift-lock-release button. Going from N to R does. Going from R to N typically does not either (and neither does going from N to D)

Then again, I drive a MT....

4wheelkillr

I'm sure that's what they said of course because that helps them further blame toyota for some failure that didn't really happen.

THe question then is HOW did the car choose to not allow them to shift to neutral. Every car I've ever seen or driven the shift can be moved while driving. In the case of neutral you don't even have to touch the button. It'll move from reverse to neutral and drive to neutral with just moving the stick, you don't even have to push the bottom. I do it every day when I back out of my driveway. From reverse, thru neutral, and into drive in one movement without ever touching the button. It won't let you go up into reverse from neutral without pushing the button but neutral can be had by just pushing the shifter.

So again, I highly doubt there was anything wrong and the car "wouldn't let them" shift into neutral. I heard the same news report a few weeks ago, this lady who rearended someone said her car took off. She said the brakes didn't work, she couldn't shift to neutral and she couldn't turn it off because the key wouldn't move. Ask yourself this applying Occam's Razor: was this a quadruple system failure involving the gas pedal, shifter, brake, ignition or did the lady just plain rearend someone and try to blame someone else....I think the answer is obvious.

4wheelkillr

DAMN! you must have posted this as I was typing my own response!!

digitaldistorte

I thought i heard that there was some sort of "electronic" lockout where the trans would shift into neutral, but it was still accelerating in gear. Because yeah, that's the first thing I would do...

Edit - from a claimaint:
[Quote source = "http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123341958"]
FRANK LANGFITT: Nancy Bernstein(ph) was driving her Prius in Wisconsin in the summer of 2007. She was following her husband, who was riding with other bikers along a winding road.

Ms. NANCY BERNSTEIN: I had the car just take off on a sudden acceleration.

LANGFITT: Bernstein says the speedometer raced from 45 to 70. She steered to avoid hitting the cyclists.

Ms. BERNSTEIN: I put the emergency brake on. I had both feet on the brake pedal. I was pulling up against the steering wheel. I was trying to shift into neutral - it wouldn't go into neutral for me. I tried to stop it with the power button. That wouldn't work. The only reason it stopped was, I think, the brakes melted together.
[/Quote]

Beer Magazine

While I agree with you to some extent. There is evidence that Toyota of EUROPE actually had lots of problems with unintended acceleration and it didn't get sent to other areas.

Beer Magazine

But I do agree that some of the problems seem like it's a case of "blame" and not really the truth.

I don't know what happened with the OPs car. I have a new 09 Vert and felt the dumb rev match make the car move buck under braking. I had a VW or 2 do the same. I did pose the question to my wife of what to do if this or something similar happened and she didn't say the obvious things of neutral and turn the car off. One guy at work was scared that there would be no power brakes (we used to stop cars without them).

So there is a lesson to be learned. But with everything becoming "electronic" these days...throttle, brakes, steering...there aren't actual linkages between things we need. And like all computers they may fail.

Mike

iTrader: (1)

I would love to see people have both feet on the brake pedal, cuz my left foot wouldn't be able to find it. The muscle memory just isn't there (and my brake pedal isn't big enough for 2 feet to be on it)

x95stacey

If the throttle was stuck, how is it not Toyota's fault?

I think it’s pretty obvious that Toyota has a problem with unintended acceleration with their cars.

I really don’t give a f—k if people sue. The fact is Toyota has defective throttle components and they are responsible for anything bad that comes from this.

Marc Collins

How could I forget it? Back at the time I bought a used '87 manual transmission, top of the line 5000 CD turbo quattro sedan for next to nothing because the prices for all Audis went into the toilet because of the "scandal"--even ones with sticks that were never claimed to be affected. That car was the most reliable and amazing car (for its time) I have ever owned (had it for 5 years). Too bad my more recent Audi was a problem-prone pain in the &*^.

Other posters are correct about the lawsuit business. Poor Audi tried to use German logic to illustrate that you could floor the throttle, even in the more powerful turbo model, and the brakes would easily hold or stop the car. I can attest that even the turbo didn't have that much power, but the brakes were awesome, as to be expected from a top of the line German sedan designed for Autobahn speeds. The 60 minutes did their fake video and showed a few people crying who had (tragically) panicked and killed their own loved ones by pressing the wrong pedal and it was all over for Audi in North America for more than a decade. I am happy to see that consumers are smarter than that today and Toyota's sales look like they are just temporarily dented. Unlike Audi at the time, which was a niche player and definitely did NOT have a great reliability record, today too many people know that, as appliances at least, Toyota's are great cars.

I do not believe there is any evidence that a Toyota prevented anyone from shifting into neutral.

There is tons of evidence that Toyota's brakes will hold and stop the car even when the throttle is wide open.

There is a very insignificant sticking issue with some worn throttles in Toyota's--which they are fixing with a 29 cent piece of steel. As far as I know, they are not replacing the throttles with new ones even if they are worn.

Toyota does not use an electronic cut-off like Infiniti, so that throttle is cut when the brakes are depressed, but then neither do many other manufacturers and in the olden days of mechanical throttles, no cars had that. Any sporting driver knows that there are many times you want to be able to balance the car in a turn by modulating the brakes while continuing to apply throttle. I guess Infiniti isn't so sporting after all (but Toyota is?). Even if Toyota adopts this, it could still fail (as some on this board claim they have had it do in their G's) and you still need to shift into neutral.

Yes, the throttle issue affected cars in Europe and elsewhere (including Canada where the throttles were manufactured...a few minutes from where I live). Only in the US is there a litigious frenzy occurring. I don't think it's because Americans are less intelligent. It may be affected the general culture of fear that your media and politicians stoke at every opportunity. But I think it is more likely the result of your legal system that promotes these sorts of lawsuits for every imaginable scenario. Why is that the case? Find out whether lawyers in other jurisdictions can be paid a percentage of the settlement in these sorts of cases and you will discover why they are generally not pursued in other (non-US) places.

ozzypriest

iTrader: (2)

The Toyota/Lexus car models in question are electronically prevented from shifting in neutral when above a certain speed. That is, they drivers could not shift into neutral when the problem presented itself.

Mike

iTrader: (1)

Proof?
I'm not disputing this statement, but the average driver will not floor their brakes. My belief is that they will gradually increase brake pedal pressure, but by the time they exert enough force, the pads have sufficiently overheated enough where they are not providing the braking force necessary to stop the vehicle.

Street pads don't have much tolerance. I guarantee you ANY production Toyota will heat their brake pads out of their operating temperature range doing a 70-0 panic stop. Infiniti's brakes do, and I'm pretty sure everyone here can agree with that.

Marc Collins

As Mike asked...proof? I don't think a design of that sort is even legal, let alone logical. You ALWAYS need to be able to shift into neutral, just as you ALWAYS have the option to depress the clutch in a manual tranny car. What possible reason would a manufacturer have to prevent this most obvious necessary action? It would cost them extra to do this and serves no purpose whatsoever. Doing it would risk lives and lawsuits galore. No manufacturer would ever choose that self-destructive path.

Mike

iTrader: (1)

Just to add, in a MT, you can always just pull the trans into neutral without clutching...

PascalT

I've read the whole thread but as a 2010 xs sedan should I be worried at all when using my car now? From what i've read there's no report of it happening on 2010 models yet..

SkyMG37x

I think the question of the Toyota/Lexus issue is how the multiple on board computer systems communicate and whether they can get into a state where they ignore commands because one of the computers believes the command is incorrect. Remember the initial Airbus incident at the Paris Air Show where the plane's control systems ignored the pilot's commands to increase thrust and climb because it determined that the plane's attitude was in a pre-landing state? There were comments on 60 minutes by the company claiming the crash was "soft" because the computer handled the situation well (!?!).

It's all about how the software handles these cases. In the Toyota case there are many blogs with actual experiences including conversation with a Toyata service technician that apparently admitted he experienced similar issues but backtracked after the situation started getting more publicity. Remember that the family that died after the car crashed at over 100 MPH was being driven by an 19 year veteran CHP officer who's job involved vehicle safety inspections so it's logical to assume he was more knowledgeable than the average person on what to do.

Also comparing to a MT is, as pointed out, a very different setup as the clutch pedal is a physical connection to clutch plate, whereas the AT in these newer cars are electronically controlled so even shifting to N or P is not a mechanical connection between the shift lever and the gears. From our service manual:

The A/T senses vehicle operating conditions through various sensors or signals. It always controls the optimum shift position and reduces shifting and lock-up shocks.

TCM FUNCTION
The function of the TCM is to:
• Receive input signals sent from various switches and sensors.
• Determine required line pressure, shifting point, lock-up operation, engine brake operation, etc.
• Send required output signals to the respective solenoids.

My input to this is basically that the evidence points to something other than a stuck accelerator pedal based on the numerous documented cases. I would not be surprised if the solution involved significant software changes in the Toyota situations. Just my opinion.