bythabay

iTrader: (2)

Hello all,

I found some great papers on DLC, some even published by nissan scientists! I got access to the databases where the papers were stored and I shall be posting the PDFs here. See some initial papers attached.

I only read a part of one of them so far, but the results are very interesting. Please feel free to use this thread to share your thoughts on the subject.

Super low friction of DLC applied to engine cam follower lubricated
with ester-containing oil

Improvement of boundary lubrication properties of diamond-like
carbon (DLC) films due to metal addition

Boundary lubrication mechanisms of carbon coatings by MoDTC
and ZDDP additives

MSCA

iTrader: (3)

Cliffs notes?

wakeboardr116

iTrader: (6)

So what oil are we supposed to use?

bythabay

iTrader: (2)

I know it's a lot to swallow, but the answer lies in the documents and some oil analysis reports.

After taking a very brief looks at the papers and reviewing several used oil analysis reports, I believe I have confirmed the following information as fact:

1) PAO ester is recommended by Nissan to lubricate the drivetrain (duh!)
2) The secret solid ingredient in Nissan Ester Oil isn't a diamond-like compound, but instead, it is good-ol' Molybdenum!
3) When used with the proper amount of ZDDP, Moly becomes most effective at reducing the co-efficient of friction.
4) Nissan's oil, according to oil reports, is full of Moly and ZDDP. It has an additive package similar to that of the highest quality Synthetics.

For example, some Mobil1 oils contain on average about 70 ppm of Moly, while Amsoil Signature Series typically contains almost zero Moly, but is very heavily fortified with ZDDP. Combining the two seemed to provide the best test results when used with the Hydrogen-Free DLC coating.

So far, my conclusion is that Nissan's base stock oil sucks and that if they had chosen a good quality ester oil as their base stock instead, their oil would hold up much better. The reason their oil is so expensive, is partly because of how much Moly and ZDDP is in it.. Or perhaps it's just Moly, and I am reading the reports wrong.

So.... what oil should you use? I think what I am going to do, is combine Amsoil Signature Series with a Moly additive.

bythabay

iTrader: (2)

Here are some conclusion sections from the papers:

MoDTC = Molybdenum
MoS2 = Molybedenum
a-C = Hydrogen-Free DLC

MaluG37

Good info. Have you posted this on bobistheoilguy.com? If so please give us the link so we can participate in the discussion. Someone on that forum would understand the details.

bythabay

iTrader: (2)

I haven't done so yet, but I intend to.

SM_Shadowman

I remember reading that Redline was high in both ZDDP and Moly. Although it costs nearly as much as Nissan Ester oil. But theoretically should be better (less shearing?) than Nissan's if you use it for longer intervals like schedule 2 or somewhere in the middle.

JonfromCB

Nothing new here, These papers were referenced, reduced to plain languange and
discussed adnauseam in oil threads last year. Few read, fewer understood and most
couldn't comprehend it's all about emerging emissions technology.

Steveo47

iTrader: (8)

Redline will void your engine warranty, thats why many people dont use it i think.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

O noes! Not some silly papers!

Redline. I posted VOA's of Redline compared to Nissan Ester oil months ago. Comparing specs, its the most similar to Nissan Ester, only the biggest difference is it doesnt break down or shear because its made with a higher base oil.

Nissan should have just spec'd Redline from the beginning. Redline, Schaeffers, and Motul 300V are the 3 closest IIRC to the Nissan Ester Oil specs.

Heres my comparison of Nissan Ester oil UOA and Redline UOA. Note the Moly, calcium, phosphorous, boron, sodium, barium, potassium, magnesium, and zinc specs are very similar and if I covered up the viscosity and flashpoints, it would be hard to tell them apart based on their additive packages.

philter25

iTrader: (4)

Just like adding a CAI or SRI will void your engine warranty also. And adding headers or exhaust or HFC's void your exhaust warranty, and maybe even your engine warranty.

Per what I posted in another thread but I dont want to retype:

And theres a reason Redline and Amsoil both arent API certified. To meet API certification they would need to change the additive package and it would reduce the protection from both oils. Both companies believe that the API's phosphorus limit is too low. (Phosphorus = ZDDP)

If they wanted to be API certified, they could easily just reduce the amount of phosphorous in their oil. Some oil fanatics would argue that the API specs actually limit the use of some high performance better oils which would provide better protection for their engine...... which would be pretty beneficial to our engine, which is one that produces a lot of heat.

On the other hand, if you compare the VOA's of Schaeffers and Redline and Amsoil, depending on what VOA you look at, theres only a 100 ppm difference.

Also, Nissan Ester Oil is API certified. But after running it and UOA data, theres no way in hell I'd put that in my car for an OCI. Numerous UOA's have shown the same exact thing. Just because its API certified, doesnt mean its the best for this car.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

More info on the whole API certified vs non-api certified:

AMSOIL and API Licensing Certification & Warranty

Amsoil and Redline and a few others are in the same boat. Its a good read.

Some interesting tidbits from AMSOIL's website:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0 itxtvisited="1"><TBODY itxtvisited="1"><TR itxtvisited="1"><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset" itxtvisited="1">Why are some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils API licensed and some are not?

There are two primary reasons:
1. There are strict phosphorus additive level restrictions placed on API certified oils that would
minimize the full performance and extended oil drain capability of AMSOIL motor oils.
2. The API does NOT allow read-across approvals for synthetic motor oils, and therefore
certification costs become unrealistic.</SPAN>

Phosphorus Restrictions
Full API licensing, or certification, would impose strict phosphorous limitations on AMSOIL motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly formulated and balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or NOACK volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.
Keep in mind that every time a person changes their motor oil, they are introducing a fresh quantity of phosphorus from the new oil to the engine’s catalytic converter. By the very nature of providing extended oil drains, in a typical application AMSOIL motor oils actually introduce a smaller volume of phosphorus to the catalytic converter over the life of the vehicle, which means it is more friendly to the catalytic converter and is actually a more environmentally friendly product to use.

Read-Across Approvals
In the lubricants industry petroleum motor oils that are API licensed have “ read-across approval .” What this means is you can seek API licensing approval on a specific product, with a particular additive package, and then use read-across approval to market this same oil formulation in any number of oil viscosities. For example, if you license a 5W-30 with additive package ABC, then you can market your 10w-30 or 10W-40 engine oils with the API certification donut provided these other viscosities use additive package ABC. The API does NOT allow read-across approval on synthetic engine oils, which means that every single oil viscosity must be individually/separately, certified to carry the API certified donut mark of the API.

API Licensing, via read across approval, works for petroleum products, but the licensing process has a “stranglehold” on synthetic technology. This puts AMSOIL INC. in a tough situation. If we followed conventional practice, not only would we find it necessary to buy “ off the shelf ” oil formula components from specific vendors - and be at the mercy of their pricing - we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and, not surprisingly, even higher associated costs.

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through, or if it requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

To solve this problem, the API should establish base stock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks - just as they have for other basestocks - as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components so that manufacturer’s and marketers of synthetic engine oils have an even playing field as it relates to API certification costs. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Nissan Ester Oil VOA's put their phosphorous at around 400+ ppm depending on samples. Redline is 800+ ppm. So you can put Nissan Ester Oil in your car every 3750 miles, because it shears at 4000 miles, and over the course of 7500 miles, you would have put 800 ppm of Phosphorous in your car. OR you can put in Amsoil or Redline and do a longer OCI. Both have better protection for your engine, and over the same 7500 miles, you would only put in 800 ppm of Phosphorous.

This is scientific data which can be found through any VOA or even UOA's all over the boards, my350z, and BITOG.

Case in point is look at the UOAs of Redline and Amsoil and Royal Purple. They all make non-API certified oils that are much much much much much better for your car than cheaper oils which are API certified.

And as stated in your owners manual, Infiniti even recommends their Ester oil for their schedule 2 maintenance (which is 7500 miles) that is API certified but numerous UOA's show it shearing and breaking down at 4000 miles.

You are more likely to see engine problems from following infiniti's advice and using their Nissan Ester oil on schedule 2 than you are from using Redline or Amsoil on schedule 2.

Also, Im guessing that the reason they state in the manual is to use only API certified oils is incase some idiot puts somethig stupid like Crisco in his car and wonders why he has engine failure.

The reason its not API certified is because of the Phosphorous, and because excessive amounts of oil burned with Phosphorous can damage your cat converters. It really has nothing to do with engine wear or lubrication. Phosphorous is important for valve train protection in your engine, and as most of us know, the VVEL is pretty complicated and produces a lot of heat and needs the protection. And the reason the API cert cut the phosphorous ppm requirement was that the government pushed for a 150,000 mile cat converter lifetime. The quickest way to do that was to drop the phosphorous spec in the API. So the only thing the dealer could void your warranty on would be cat failure..... and if your engine is burning that much oil that your cats are failing before your warranty is up, then you have a serious problem!<!--

OEM's are now mandated to warranty the emission system and the way to ensure that is to require an API rated oil with lower ZDDP content. OEM's are essentially trading the engine lifespan against the emission lifespan. It should be noted again that premature cat failure due to ZDDP would only be caused if your engine was burning oil. If you engine is properly sealed and maintained and doesnt burn oil, then running the higher concentration of ZDDP isnt a concern. However, the only way OEM's can adhere to the government mandate is through by recommending an API SM rated oil with .08% of ZDDP.

As a side note, I believe some old cars have seen engine failure (flat tappet camshafts) due to using newer oils which are API certified because the new API cert oils have the lower concentration of phosphorus. I believe the current level is under 600 ppm, or .08%.

Now, on the other side, the GOOD part of the API ratings is that it forms MINIMUMS for cheaper oils to have to adhere to. So when you put that cheap dealer API rated dino oil in your car, you know it at a minimum meets API spec.

SM_Shadowman

Red Line will absolutely not "void your engine warranty." If using a non-api-certified oil like Red Line somehow causes a failure, and Infiniti can show that that was the cause, then Infiniti can deny a warranty claim for that part.

The law says the onus is on the manufacturer to prove that the oil caused the failure.