Help Tuning Question - Under the Curve
01-20-2017, 08:29 AM
#16
Good luck then though I did mean get a remote tune from Seb like the others have on various vq forums. So I'm guessing you avoid anyplace you can't drive to. You must be paying quite a lot buying parts locally lol
01-20-2017, 08:33 AM
#17
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01-20-2017, 09:09 AM
#18
When I got my '94 Firebird tuned--in Akron, lol--me and 2 other guys had a tuner from out of town come and "rented" the dyno for him to tune our cars on. Dyno rental was $150 and tune was $350. Or about the same as if I would have had the less experienced dyno shop tune my car.
I think what he's recommend is you go to a dyno and pay for dyno time. You log each run via a laptop, send the file to the tuner, he adjusts and sends you a tune back. Rinse and repeat until you're both happy with the tune. There probably isn't a big cost difference, just more complicated process, which could be offset by going to a more local dyno shop.
I think what he's recommend is you go to a dyno and pay for dyno time. You log each run via a laptop, send the file to the tuner, he adjusts and sends you a tune back. Rinse and repeat until you're both happy with the tune. There probably isn't a big cost difference, just more complicated process, which could be offset by going to a more local dyno shop.
01-20-2017, 09:21 AM
#19
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According to UpRev's website, Smokey's Dyno and Pro Car Associates.
My intent for this project, when it happens, is to have the car dyno-tuned on the premises and drive home. No fiddling afterwards, just cash on the barrel for expertise and equipment, and maybe a fun day (or two) in the process.
My intent for this thread was to get some opinions about under-the-curve changes vs. peak HP. The more I focus on that, the more it seems likely than otherwise.
Coincidentally, and on-topic to the thread, EveryDayDriver released a new video just yesterday about tuning, describing under-the-curve gains. Granted, different car, different software, but the idea is the same.
Love these guys! If you've never followed Todd and Paul before... enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bhnMYvn5S4
My intent for this project, when it happens, is to have the car dyno-tuned on the premises and drive home. No fiddling afterwards, just cash on the barrel for expertise and equipment, and maybe a fun day (or two) in the process.
My intent for this thread was to get some opinions about under-the-curve changes vs. peak HP. The more I focus on that, the more it seems likely than otherwise.
Coincidentally, and on-topic to the thread, EveryDayDriver released a new video just yesterday about tuning, describing under-the-curve gains. Granted, different car, different software, but the idea is the same.
Love these guys! If you've never followed Todd and Paul before... enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bhnMYvn5S4
01-21-2017, 12:37 AM
#20
Ok so I used to tune cars and at one point I was working on getting my Motec certification. I dealt extensively with a few different ECU's, all stand-alone and I tended to avoid the piggyback stuff.
Anyway...the parts you choose will affect your power band, the area under the curve, and your peak numbers. Tuning does not have a cause and effect between your area under the curve and your peak hp. So if you "tune" for midrange, you're not really going to affect your peak numbers at redline as you're optimizing air/fuel ratios, EGT's, cylinder pressure and timing throughout the engine's operating range. You're not going to sacrifice torque through tuning by going for peak numbers. A good tuner is optimizing the entire curve. Now that's a really simplistic way of stating it. And there are nuances which can alter the area under the curve and reduce peak numbers at any given RPM point. Horsepower is a theoretical number, torque can be measured. So one does affect the other. In short, if you optimize your midrange torque, that doesn't mean you cannot optimize your top end numbers.
With forced induction, you can size turbos or alter the boost curve to move the power band around. Likewise with a n/a setup. A really good example is the Motordyne vs. Z1 intake manifold. Both make power but in different parts of the power band. They're the "limiting" factor, not the tuning itself. A great tuner will optimize your area under the curve and your peak numbers.
Anyway...the parts you choose will affect your power band, the area under the curve, and your peak numbers. Tuning does not have a cause and effect between your area under the curve and your peak hp. So if you "tune" for midrange, you're not really going to affect your peak numbers at redline as you're optimizing air/fuel ratios, EGT's, cylinder pressure and timing throughout the engine's operating range. You're not going to sacrifice torque through tuning by going for peak numbers. A good tuner is optimizing the entire curve. Now that's a really simplistic way of stating it. And there are nuances which can alter the area under the curve and reduce peak numbers at any given RPM point. Horsepower is a theoretical number, torque can be measured. So one does affect the other. In short, if you optimize your midrange torque, that doesn't mean you cannot optimize your top end numbers.
With forced induction, you can size turbos or alter the boost curve to move the power band around. Likewise with a n/a setup. A really good example is the Motordyne vs. Z1 intake manifold. Both make power but in different parts of the power band. They're the "limiting" factor, not the tuning itself. A great tuner will optimize your area under the curve and your peak numbers.
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Rochester (01-21-2017)
01-21-2017, 08:44 AM
#21
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Great post, Ape. 
My interest in replacing the UIM has waffled over the years, and settled on disinterest. I suppose if I tune first, that solves that dilemma.
When you say "both make power, but in different parts of the powerband", could you elaborate, please? I've always been under the impression that differences between the two were marginal, but that's likely an opinion based on anecdotal un-tuned comments. Not so?
My interest in replacing the UIM has waffled over the years, and settled on disinterest. I suppose if I tune first, that solves that dilemma.
When you say "both make power, but in different parts of the powerband", could you elaborate, please? I've always been under the impression that differences between the two were marginal, but that's likely an opinion based on anecdotal un-tuned comments. Not so?
Last edited by Rochester; 01-21-2017 at 08:51 AM.
01-21-2017, 08:54 AM
#22
01-21-2017, 09:10 AM
#23
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This might answer your question: https://www.myg37.com/forums/intake-...1-plenums.html
01-21-2017, 10:31 AM
#24
Yeah basically the two UIM's have different runner diameters and shapes and it affects where the engine will produce power. It's called induction tuning. Some cars (and even motorcycles) can have variable runners, meaning there's an actuator that can change the length of the intake runners. Longer for low and midrange, shorter for top end.
Our UIM's are not variable but the tuning principles are the same. There's a good sized jump in peak hp on the 3.7's over the 1st gen models.
Edit: I've talked to several tuners who have hands on experience with both and all have basically said to not bother switching them out for the stock OEM UIM.
Our UIM's are not variable but the tuning principles are the same. There's a good sized jump in peak hp on the 3.7's over the 1st gen models.
Edit: I've talked to several tuners who have hands on experience with both and all have basically said to not bother switching them out for the stock OEM UIM.
Last edited by Ape Factory; 01-21-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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Rochester (01-21-2017)
01-21-2017, 11:17 AM
#25
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While not an engineer, I'm a little familiar with what you're describing. The 5.5 gen Maxima had a variable length design in the UIM, managed by the ECU and a vacuum actuated butterfly valve. Replacing that valve with a block off plate shortened the runner length by leaving the upper and lower shelf open all the time, which increased top end while sacrificing low end torque.
01-22-2017, 01:59 AM
#26
you guys still squeezing this engine ? 
Stroke it or boost it! you're just laughing at yourselves with these attempts!
Trust me ..you're wasting your time with this car! Get a v8 and start modding it or boost that lil VQ!
Throw me stones as you like, but listen .. I've been modding this car all of my life and I just realized - after all these years - infiniti is the wrong car!
Stroke it or boost it! you're just laughing at yourselves with these attempts!
Trust me ..you're wasting your time with this car! Get a v8 and start modding it or boost that lil VQ!
Throw me stones as you like, but listen .. I've been modding this car all of my life and I just realized - after all these years - infiniti is the wrong car!
01-22-2017, 08:49 AM
#28
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01-22-2017, 01:46 PM
#30
^ not everyone has the resources ($$$$) to bore, stroke or blow (force induction). Apparently you do.
Now back to the subject that the OP started this thread.
It has been my experience (I'm over 50 years old) that the area under the curve is way more important than peak numbers. Anything that a person can do to improve the efficiency of the air pump (well that's basically what an engine is), helps. So anything that you do to improve airflow into and out of the engine in the operating RPM you're interested in, all the better. Whether that be a different intake, heads, cam or exhaust system...... an improvement in the efficiency is an improvement. The costs vary, so that's totally up to the available $$$ of the individual.
Speed cost $$$, so....... how fast do you want to go?
Now back to the subject that the OP started this thread.
It has been my experience (I'm over 50 years old) that the area under the curve is way more important than peak numbers. Anything that a person can do to improve the efficiency of the air pump (well that's basically what an engine is), helps. So anything that you do to improve airflow into and out of the engine in the operating RPM you're interested in, all the better. Whether that be a different intake, heads, cam or exhaust system...... an improvement in the efficiency is an improvement. The costs vary, so that's totally up to the available $$$ of the individual.
Speed cost $$$, so....... how fast do you want to go?