Help Tuning Question - Under the Curve
01-22-2017, 04:54 PM
#31
I've been tuning cars for a little while now. When I started tuning my Infiniti with Uprev, it was a long process to learn since they seem to do things a lit differently than a lot of the other software out there. But this is what I came up with: I have 5 maps - 91 oct (daily); 91 oct (rich); 93 oct (daily); Race gas (100+ oct); Valet. It took me a while to get them squared away, but I feel like they are all doing what they are supposed to.
The maps that are applicable in this discussion are the 91 and 93 octane daily maps. They are daily maps because I wanted a car that excelled in the conditions you described - hitting it in the midrange just off an on ramp, cruising the canyons on public roads, etc. Specifically NOT taching it to redline and running 10/10ths with runoff areas and an onsite medical crew.
Anyway, one thing that is pretty important in this was part throttle response. This is something most tuners neglect when they have your car strapped on the dyno. They just do WOT pulls and try for peak numbers or torque curves. Which is good - you need that too, but what if you are at 3K and just dip into the throttle 60%? Do you have to go 100% in order for it to give you the shove of accessing the powerband? That's the stuff I concentrated on for my daily maps. As a result, my throttle curves are pretty wacky.
So long story short, throttle maps are quite different between the daily maps versus the race maps. On the daily maps, the throttle curve is similar to what I would expect the Sprint Booster to change it to - quite a bit more 'gain' in the midrange with a more gradual increase up to 100%. While the race map has a much more linear curve up to 100%. How you change them is up to you, or the tuner. But I'm only pointing out that most tuners strap the car on the dyno and just tune the 100% throttle. Partial throttle is where the drivability characteristic is, so ask your tuner to have a look there.
The maps that are applicable in this discussion are the 91 and 93 octane daily maps. They are daily maps because I wanted a car that excelled in the conditions you described - hitting it in the midrange just off an on ramp, cruising the canyons on public roads, etc. Specifically NOT taching it to redline and running 10/10ths with runoff areas and an onsite medical crew.
Anyway, one thing that is pretty important in this was part throttle response. This is something most tuners neglect when they have your car strapped on the dyno. They just do WOT pulls and try for peak numbers or torque curves. Which is good - you need that too, but what if you are at 3K and just dip into the throttle 60%? Do you have to go 100% in order for it to give you the shove of accessing the powerband? That's the stuff I concentrated on for my daily maps. As a result, my throttle curves are pretty wacky.
So long story short, throttle maps are quite different between the daily maps versus the race maps. On the daily maps, the throttle curve is similar to what I would expect the Sprint Booster to change it to - quite a bit more 'gain' in the midrange with a more gradual increase up to 100%. While the race map has a much more linear curve up to 100%. How you change them is up to you, or the tuner. But I'm only pointing out that most tuners strap the car on the dyno and just tune the 100% throttle. Partial throttle is where the drivability characteristic is, so ask your tuner to have a look there.
01-22-2017, 06:58 PM
#32
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^^^
Another good post. Thanks, RadioFlyer.
And you're right, I'd likely apply the 93 octane map and call it a day. Although 91 octane is available around here, I've no problem paying a little more for 93, because I put so few miles on my car.
The Maxima I mentioned earlier... for about a half year I had the Sprint Booster on that car, fully aware that it was only front-loading throttle signal and was not actually making the car more responsive. It was a fun little mod, and a playful opportunity in that I bought it used for cheap. (No way would I pay full price for the SB. There's only so far I would go for a known placebo.) However, knowing what that was like, I'm content not to do anything similar with the G. Besides, in a few months I'll be having 4.083 rear gears installed (
), and I suspect the low-end will feel sufficiently more enthusiastic after that anyway.
I suppose the take-away from all this is to work with the dyno-tuner, keeping all these things in mind... discuss under-the-curve gains vs. peak HP, discuss throttle sensitivity, discuss the objectives of different mappings. Basically, don't just drop the car off and get high at the local Tim Hortons, but to engage the tuner throughout the process.
Cool. Thanks.
Same here. Old man with a slow hobby in his barely driven daily driver.
Another good post. Thanks, RadioFlyer.
And you're right, I'd likely apply the 93 octane map and call it a day. Although 91 octane is available around here, I've no problem paying a little more for 93, because I put so few miles on my car.
The Maxima I mentioned earlier... for about a half year I had the Sprint Booster on that car, fully aware that it was only front-loading throttle signal and was not actually making the car more responsive. It was a fun little mod, and a playful opportunity in that I bought it used for cheap. (No way would I pay full price for the SB. There's only so far I would go for a known placebo.) However, knowing what that was like, I'm content not to do anything similar with the G. Besides, in a few months I'll be having 4.083 rear gears installed (
), and I suspect the low-end will feel sufficiently more enthusiastic after that anyway.I suppose the take-away from all this is to work with the dyno-tuner, keeping all these things in mind... discuss under-the-curve gains vs. peak HP, discuss throttle sensitivity, discuss the objectives of different mappings. Basically, don't just drop the car off and get high at the local Tim Hortons, but to engage the tuner throughout the process.
Cool. Thanks.
Same here. Old man with a slow hobby in his barely driven daily driver.
Last edited by Rochester; 01-23-2017 at 09:37 AM.
01-23-2017, 08:38 PM
#33
Excellent takeaway.
Yeah, the Sprint booster by itself is a pretty silly mod. The key is to have the power in reserve that you access with the gas pedal! I have gears and a supercharger, so there's plenty of power potential. The thing I noticed was that even with that power, the throttle mapping can still be 'lazy', and mask the power you have. I believe that's how the throttle is mapped from the factory. That's what people refer to as 'throttle lag'. And I'm also well aware that front-loading a throttle curve is a trick that economy cars do to make you think there is more power there. But if you have the power in reserve, you can run this kind of throttle curve and the car doesn't run out of breath after the first 30% of throttle.
Best of luck! It sounds like you're going into it with your eyes open, so you have a much better chance of it being a good experience for you!
Yeah, the Sprint booster by itself is a pretty silly mod. The key is to have the power in reserve that you access with the gas pedal! I have gears and a supercharger, so there's plenty of power potential. The thing I noticed was that even with that power, the throttle mapping can still be 'lazy', and mask the power you have. I believe that's how the throttle is mapped from the factory. That's what people refer to as 'throttle lag'. And I'm also well aware that front-loading a throttle curve is a trick that economy cars do to make you think there is more power there. But if you have the power in reserve, you can run this kind of throttle curve and the car doesn't run out of breath after the first 30% of throttle.
Best of luck! It sounds like you're going into it with your eyes open, so you have a much better chance of it being a good experience for you!
04-13-2017, 10:13 PM
#35
So I've been tuned for a while now and I'll share my thoughts on tuning the transmission and the throttle.
Transmission first. Yes, it'll make the actual shift more snappy (read harsh) so you're into the power sooner. It won't change the lag between pulling the paddle and the actual shift. Since it's adjustable, you can tailor the amount of extra clamping pressure.
Throttle. This is where it gets sticky. If you were to create a graph, with one axis being the throttle opening and one axis being the pedal travel, it'll move the WOT point in a linear fashion as best I can tell. You cannot adjust the shape of the curve, the slope.
I have two maps, one with a "mild" throttle setting and one that's more aggressive. With a more aggressive setting, you gas mileage will plummet dramatically. It's not a small decrease either. It's also difficult to drive the car smoothly when not driving aggressively. This is particularly detrimental when the roads are less than perfect. A sensitive throttle is not good when the road is wet or slick.
With that said, it works well when driving aggressively.
Combine the two and daily driving, along with the transmission shift logic, isn't matched particularly well and it really highlights the flaws of the transmission. With the stock throttle, this hasn't been an issue for me. In fact, I could pretty much get what I wanted in terms of response with the stock throttle. I do think the extra line pressure is a good idea if you're seeing good gains with the tune/bolt-on mods.
The entire setup seems to come alive and make sense when you're at about 50-60% of the car's total ability. Below that and especially easy driving, you have to sort of drive around it. It's just more of a lightswitch and the car looses some of it's smoothness at low throttle. It'll either lug in a high gear or downshift dramatically. There's no midpoint, no happy medium.
Some of this could be tuned out and I'd probably be happier going back to the stock throttle mapping. You're not gaining any power with the throttle hijack, it's just getting to WOT sooner in the pedal's travel. It does launch the car hard from a stop which can be nice.
I just like the extra travel and modulation potential.
Besides the power, the biggest plus for tuning is ECUTek's traction control. It's really good with a caveat. I can get on the throttle more with the aftermarket traction control vs. the VDC system which steps in harshly. The ECUTek's TC is a bit softer and it allows you to modulate the throttle while on the edge of adhesion. You can adjust for slip. I'm not sure what "level" I'm on but it's fairly predictable and I can go in and out of TC while maintaining forward thrust. I can see it being a bit of an issue as once it grips, you'll need some steering correction. Get it too far and you'll be pointed at the "wall" or armco barrier when it grips. Anyone who's done track days will know what I'm referring to. BUT it is predictable and you'd have to be really ham fisted to do that. It ain't full-proof.
Part-throttle power is much better as is overall power/area under the curve. It's a wholly more competent and powerful car with tuning and overall a better package when driving aggressively and using the car as it should be used.
I do plan on going to the dyno at some point but I've been swamped. I won't be able to do anything at least until late May or June. I have the original map so I can test both back to back on the same day.
Transmission first. Yes, it'll make the actual shift more snappy (read harsh) so you're into the power sooner. It won't change the lag between pulling the paddle and the actual shift. Since it's adjustable, you can tailor the amount of extra clamping pressure.
Throttle. This is where it gets sticky. If you were to create a graph, with one axis being the throttle opening and one axis being the pedal travel, it'll move the WOT point in a linear fashion as best I can tell. You cannot adjust the shape of the curve, the slope.
I have two maps, one with a "mild" throttle setting and one that's more aggressive. With a more aggressive setting, you gas mileage will plummet dramatically. It's not a small decrease either. It's also difficult to drive the car smoothly when not driving aggressively. This is particularly detrimental when the roads are less than perfect. A sensitive throttle is not good when the road is wet or slick.
With that said, it works well when driving aggressively.
Combine the two and daily driving, along with the transmission shift logic, isn't matched particularly well and it really highlights the flaws of the transmission. With the stock throttle, this hasn't been an issue for me. In fact, I could pretty much get what I wanted in terms of response with the stock throttle. I do think the extra line pressure is a good idea if you're seeing good gains with the tune/bolt-on mods.
The entire setup seems to come alive and make sense when you're at about 50-60% of the car's total ability. Below that and especially easy driving, you have to sort of drive around it. It's just more of a lightswitch and the car looses some of it's smoothness at low throttle. It'll either lug in a high gear or downshift dramatically. There's no midpoint, no happy medium.
Some of this could be tuned out and I'd probably be happier going back to the stock throttle mapping. You're not gaining any power with the throttle hijack, it's just getting to WOT sooner in the pedal's travel. It does launch the car hard from a stop which can be nice.
I just like the extra travel and modulation potential.
Besides the power, the biggest plus for tuning is ECUTek's traction control. It's really good with a caveat. I can get on the throttle more with the aftermarket traction control vs. the VDC system which steps in harshly. The ECUTek's TC is a bit softer and it allows you to modulate the throttle while on the edge of adhesion. You can adjust for slip. I'm not sure what "level" I'm on but it's fairly predictable and I can go in and out of TC while maintaining forward thrust. I can see it being a bit of an issue as once it grips, you'll need some steering correction. Get it too far and you'll be pointed at the "wall" or armco barrier when it grips. Anyone who's done track days will know what I'm referring to. BUT it is predictable and you'd have to be really ham fisted to do that. It ain't full-proof.
Part-throttle power is much better as is overall power/area under the curve. It's a wholly more competent and powerful car with tuning and overall a better package when driving aggressively and using the car as it should be used.
I do plan on going to the dyno at some point but I've been swamped. I won't be able to do anything at least until late May or June. I have the original map so I can test both back to back on the same day.
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Rochester (04-14-2017)
04-14-2017, 07:07 AM
#36
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Thanks for the detailed comments, Ape. Lots of observations there regarding the 7AT. Kind of wish you had a 6MT.
04-14-2017, 07:38 AM
#37
lots of good points already brought up..
ive been tuning my own cars for the last two decades with cobb.. microtech and powerfc..
not sure if its already been brought up but from my experience.. and its not the most convenient place to tune but think about following up with a street tune...
if not just street tune entirely.. there are certainly pros and cons for either or but I recommend post street tune follow up..
you can fine tune using real world IAT and load..and partial throttle.. and disregard perhaps issues with any dyno calibration there might be.. etc
ive been tuning my own cars for the last two decades with cobb.. microtech and powerfc..
not sure if its already been brought up but from my experience.. and its not the most convenient place to tune but think about following up with a street tune...
if not just street tune entirely.. there are certainly pros and cons for either or but I recommend post street tune follow up..
you can fine tune using real world IAT and load..and partial throttle.. and disregard perhaps issues with any dyno calibration there might be.. etc
Last edited by micafd3s; 04-14-2017 at 07:43 AM.
04-14-2017, 08:19 AM
#38
lots of good points already brought up..
ive been tuning my own cars for the last two decades with cobb.. microtech and powerfc..
not sure if its already been brought up but from my experience.. and its not the most convenient place to tune but think about following up with a street tune...
if not just street tune entirely.. there are certainly pros and cons for either or but I recommend post street tune follow up..
you can fine tune using real world IAT and load..and partial throttle.. and disregard perhaps issues with any dyno calibration there might be.. etc
ive been tuning my own cars for the last two decades with cobb.. microtech and powerfc..
not sure if its already been brought up but from my experience.. and its not the most convenient place to tune but think about following up with a street tune...
if not just street tune entirely.. there are certainly pros and cons for either or but I recommend post street tune follow up..
you can fine tune using real world IAT and load..and partial throttle.. and disregard perhaps issues with any dyno calibration there might be.. etc
ECUTek DOES have their new bluetooth dongle which allows you to not only adjust the throttle but the traction control as well. Problem is, it's an additional $300 on top of what you've already paid. Not a good value IMO.
04-14-2017, 08:23 AM
#39
Too much traffic here unfortunately. A succinct way of stating the above is it's just feels out of synch at daily-driven speeds below 5/10th's due to the throttle hijack. Above 5/10th's it works as it should and the controls feel in-synch with one and other. And while I don't mind driving like that all the time, I do hate filling up the tank every other day as a result! Reducing the throttle curve closer to stock does improve gas mileage considerably and I had Seb do this for me.
10-26-2017, 03:50 PM
#40
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Berg Racing
Found this shop not 15 miles from my house, almost entirely by accident. I was at a ball field for my youngest playing field hockey. One of the other dads who's into cars points to this building off in the distance and starts telling me this Race Shop. Primarily race cars, but they do all kinds of work on modified street cars too.
Seriously, 15 miles from my house!
OMG
http://www.berg-racing.com/
So I met the owner today, toured their facility, talked about my car, the tune, etc. Came away feeling very, very excited about next Spring. $700 dyno-tune with EcuTek, plus the cost of the license.
How cool is this?
Seriously, 15 miles from my house!
OMGhttp://www.berg-racing.com/
So I met the owner today, toured their facility, talked about my car, the tune, etc. Came away feeling very, very excited about next Spring. $700 dyno-tune with EcuTek, plus the cost of the license.
How cool is this?
10-27-2017, 02:04 PM
#41
^ $700 for tune only is kind of expensive if it doesn't include the license. Does it include the cable?
Locally in CA it cost $700 for dyno tune including license. No hardware. I think one of the shops quoted me for $650, but I went with Specialty Z for $700.
Locally in CA it cost $700 for dyno tune including license. No hardware. I think one of the shops quoted me for $650, but I went with Specialty Z for $700.
10-27-2017, 02:10 PM
#42
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On some level I agree with you about price, that this is a couple hundred dollars more than expected. I was thinking $500 + the cost of the license. However, the shop is local, which is huge considering that I live in Western NY. If I were to visit R/T Tuning or Kaizen Tuning (for example), both are a 6 hour drive each way.
If Specialty Z were 15 miles away, that would be a no-brainer decision.
10-30-2017, 02:12 PM
#43
I wanted the cable so I can go back and forth to stock if I wanted to.Specialty Z was like an hour away and I internally complained about that lol.
Maybe you can try to negotiate with the local shop. Tell them how much you can get it e-tuned from Specialty Z or another reputable tuner for($850 including cable), and tell them how much other local shops are quoting you. I feel like they high balled you and there's room to negotiate.
From what I learned from calling my local shops, cost of tune should be $300-400, $300 for the license, and you can always buy a cable online yourself; I think I bought mine used for about $220.
Maybe you can try to negotiate with the local shop. Tell them how much you can get it e-tuned from Specialty Z or another reputable tuner for($850 including cable), and tell them how much other local shops are quoting you. I feel like they high balled you and there's room to negotiate.
From what I learned from calling my local shops, cost of tune should be $300-400, $300 for the license, and you can always buy a cable online yourself; I think I bought mine used for about $220.
11-08-2017, 06:37 PM
#44
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I'm researching purchase of the EcuTek license key ahead of the tuning service, and not getting too far. Visconti sells a stand-alone key for $300. (Ouch) Pretty sure Berg Racing told me their dyno-tune would be $700 + license (no cable). That's kind of steep, particularly if you compare it to the $500 out the door dyno-tune with UpRev at Kaizen Tuning.
So specific to EcuTek, I'm wondering how this works. Do you buy a blank/unassigned key which gets applied to the ECU through the laptop software on the first connection?
So specific to EcuTek, I'm wondering how this works. Do you buy a blank/unassigned key which gets applied to the ECU through the laptop software on the first connection?
11-08-2017, 07:24 PM
#45
Look at it this way. The Ecutek comes in two parts. The cable and the tune. Both are purchased separately and both are needed for a remote tune. The cable part comes with a USB drive that has a key code. It must be inserted into the laptop to unlock the software which is a free download.
The cable is universal so you can buy any used cable off of eBay and save a few bucks over buying new. Doesn’t matter if it says it’s a Subaru cable, it’ll work. The new cost is $300!for the cable and the USB key. And you’ll need a pc laptop.
The tune varies in price depending on what you get.
Now...if you are tuning locally, you don’t necessarily need a cable if you’re not needing to flash back to stock for warranty work. You save $300 but any changes will need to be done at the tuner and you cannot log.
The cable is universal so you can buy any used cable off of eBay and save a few bucks over buying new. Doesn’t matter if it says it’s a Subaru cable, it’ll work. The new cost is $300!for the cable and the USB key. And you’ll need a pc laptop.
The tune varies in price depending on what you get.
Now...if you are tuning locally, you don’t necessarily need a cable if you’re not needing to flash back to stock for warranty work. You save $300 but any changes will need to be done at the tuner and you cannot log.